Who to manage and run a house renovation? Builder or Architect?

[finisterre]

If you treat the builder as your enemy he will find it hard to do the best job. In my experience quite a lot (most) builders really do care about the quality of their work. There is little satisfaction in a few quid and a heart filled with shame. Assuming otherwise gets their backs up.

It is easy to be optimistic when pricing, problems are inevitable, passing cost over runs due to unforeseen circumstances onto the bloke doing the work pushes him into cheap and dirty fixes. I think it makes sense to discuss how problems will be dealt with before they arise. I know that if someone wants a hard and fast price I tend to add a notional 20% onto my calculated costing as a contingency. It may cost the householder more in the long run.

Happy builders go the extra mile, flexibility and good communication are important.

 

[Darrell]

My boss always took a deposit (money up front). I never knew how much but it wasn't ever an issue with a client.

We had accounts at Travis Perkins, Jewsons and several others and the payments were as a previous poster mentioned.

However.... say for example we started a job on the first of March with 2 chippys, a plumber, a bricklayer and 3 labourers. On our firm the tradesmen would do a lot more than their own trade, this is why we did well. We had a hell of a lot of experience with no need for a P.M.


Anyway, those guys would cost approx 4600 pounds a week. Multiply that by 5 weeks and that comes to 23000 pounds. Thats a lot of dough to shell out.

Thats why we used to ask a for deposit.

 

[rossyl]

My boss always took a deposit (money up front). I never knew how much but it wasn't ever an issue with a client.

We had accounts at Travis Perkins, Jewsons and several others and the payments were as a previous poster mentioned.

However.... say for example we started a job on the first of March with 2 chippys, a plumber, a bricklayer and 3 labourers. On our firm the tradesmen would do a lot more than their own trade, this is why we did well. We had a hell of a lot of experience with no need for a P.M.


Anyway, those guys would cost approx 4600 pounds a week. Multiply that by 5 weeks and that comes to 23000 pounds. Thats a lot of dough to shell out.

Thats why we used to ask a for deposit.

I think we'd try and work on stage payments, or, monthly payments dependant on work completed.

 

[Piff]

My boss always took a deposit (money up front). I never knew how much but it wasn't ever an issue with a client.

We had accounts at Travis Perkins, Jewsons and several others and the payments were as a previous poster mentioned.

However.... say for example we started a job on the first of March with 2 chippys, a plumber, a bricklayer and 3 labourers. On our firm the tradesmen would do a lot more than their own trade, this is why we did well. We had a hell of a lot of experience with no need for a P.M.


Anyway, those guys would cost approx 4600 pounds a week. Multiply that by 5 weeks and that comes to 23000 pounds. Thats a lot of dough to shell out.

Thats why we used to ask a for deposit.

Over time, sucessfull builders should build up sufficient capital to fund wages, etc. Up to that point most have an overdraft facility at their bank.
I accept that in many areas of life we are expected to pay a deposit up front for goods & services. However, I would be very reluctant to pay in advance for building works. I would probably expect to pay any up front costs of specialist materials, but I would then want "ownership" of the goods I am paying for.

 

[davidjpowell]

My boss always took a deposit (money up front). I never knew how much but it wasn't ever an issue with a client.

We had accounts at Travis Perkins, Jewsons and several others and the payments were as a previous poster mentioned.

However.... say for example we started a job on the first of March with 2 chippys, a plumber, a bricklayer and 3 labourers. On our firm the tradesmen would do a lot more than their own trade, this is why we did well. We had a hell of a lot of experience with no need for a P.M.


Anyway, those guys would cost approx 4600 pounds a week. Multiply that by 5 weeks and that comes to 23000 pounds. Thats a lot of dough to shell out.

Thats why we used to ask a for deposit.

I have just finished getting quotes for a dilaps job in Kent. Average contract value of £40k, variation in quotes £10k either way. Top quote includes £13k worth of setup including PM. In my view, (this for example is a simple job) a decent contractor should be able to manage PM work easily.

Someone however needs to be able to make the decisions.

 

[Darrell]

I think we'd try and work on stage payments, or, monthly payments dependant on work completed.

We would have both types of payment plans depending on the job and the contract.

On some jobs the architect would draw up the plans, sort out all the relevant issues regarding planning etc etc and that would be the last of it unless we had a query. We would introduce him to the client so in effect, he would be working for us.

On other jobs, we would be the preffered contractor and the architect would be working for the client and authorise payments once certain parts of the build had been completed.

There are a a few ways of doing it.

 

[MicB]

I posted at #23 but that does not address a couple of the more recent issues raised.
Any good competent building business IS also the project manager and there should be no need for an additional layer of expense, in fact it is another opportunity for a breakdown in communications......however it depends what you think is a builder.....I presume that we are not considering a ''one man and his dog'' jobbing builder who is essentially a tradesman who has learned a bit about other trades with the passing years. That is not a criticism......a niche for everyone.
No reputable builder should expect the client to make any advanced payments (and no one should make payments up front......if this becomes necessary your builder is under funded and engaging him is an unnecessary risk)......we for instance expect to be paid monthly in arrears in the same way that is the accepted practise throughout commerce. We will be invoicing mid March for payment at the end of March for the work we did in February......the client is able to see what was done for his money before he is required to make payment.

Mic

 

[rascalmaster]

if you can't be there to micro- manage when needed; you're setting yourself up for a letdown... get a done up place instead... or wait till one of you can devote the time.
NO ONE will care about your project the way you do...
sorry if this sounds a little against the grain... but many builds later... lol

 

[rossyl]

if you can't be there to micro- manage when needed; you're setting yourself up for a letdown... get a done up place instead... or wait till one of you can devote the time.
NO ONE will care about your project the way you do...
sorry if this sounds a little against the grain... but many builds later... lol

You are probably right, no-one will care about it as much as I do as it will be my house not their's.

What I hope to find is a builder who cares about his work and intends to ask his future potential clients to visit my house so that the potential client can see the quality of the builder's work.

In my head a Project Manager is not just a person who organises all of the materials to turn up and the trades to turn up, but also (and importantly) he has a real understanding of the design of the building and what the end product should be, so that he is able to answer the builder's questions and also point out where they might have done something that was not as planned.



Thanks all for your comments and advice. I appreciate all of it.


One thing is trying to find a decent builder/architect. So far I've only had AD Developments as a recommendation from Darrell.

 

[Ade B]

Hello all. It's been a while

49 posts and no discussion of the design benefits of architects

Some interesting views on costs and fees though.

Plenty of good advice above and I certainly agree on using an experienced builder who can show you round previous projects, preferably with a happy client on hand.

Construction is a messy business and existing buildings always throw up surprises so plan accordingly.

Cheers

Ade

 

[Piff]

49 posts and no discussion of the design benefits of architects

Post 35
"However, if complex, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an Architect as they bring a different vision & experience to the project. Usually an Architect is more qualified than the planners at the local authority and can force through an unconventional design if required."

 

[Piff]

You are probably right, no-one will care about it as much as I do as it will be my house not their's.

What I hope to find is a builder who cares about his work and intends to ask his future potential clients to visit my house so that the potential client can see the quality of the builder's work.

In my head a Project Manager is not just a person who organises all of the materials to turn up and the trades to turn up, but also (and importantly) he has a real understanding of the design of the building and what the end product should be, so that he is able to answer the builder's questions and also point out where they might have done something that was not as planned.



Thanks all for your comments and advice. I appreciate all of it.


One thing is trying to find a decent builder/architect. So far I've only had AD Developments as a recommendation from Darrell.

Never worked with a project manager - they seem to be a relatively new invention! I can only see the need for one if you are not intending to use a building contractor.

I am currently a 1 man outfit and would see one as an unneccessary as I would expect to fully manage any project, with input from the architect/designer/structural engineer.

Previously I was part of a 2 man outfit and the same is true.

Before that I worked for a local builder employing about 30, and we would have a foreman on every job, with back up from office staff. and before that I worked for a regional contractor - again foremen on every job & office back up.

I would suggest you first get the design sorted, planning permission & building regulations approval. Full set of drawings & specification. Your architect/designer should be able to point you in the direction of reliable building contractors to quote based on the plans/specification.

 

[Ade B]

Post 35
"However, if complex, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an Architect as they bring a different vision & experience to the project. Usually an Architect is more qualified than the planners at the local authority and can force through an unconventional design if required."

Apologies Piff, one post mentioning design...

A

 

[robcls]

Open accounts at the local builders merchants you pay the bills as they come in, no need to hand over any cash up front for materials.

Anybody who asks for cash up front, do not use. They should be solvent enough to fund the next job, stage payments only when you are happy with the quality and quantity of work completed.

Be aware of unforeseen works! they can cost a lot and have a knock on effect to other trades with delays, delays cost money.

Keep the rules simple, there is no such thing as a fixed price because the builder can not see into the future so builds in an element of risk which you pay for. The price is only fixed when there is a fixed scope of work, trust me your wife will ensure the scope changes and when the scope changes so does the price.

Do not use friends to do the work, it just does not work, often costs you more in the end. It is far easier to disagree with a stranger and have no feeling or emotion.

Do not be bullied or intimidated, be firm and stop work if its not going right.

Stay calm at all times, even though you may feel like killing someone.

Be very cautious of "local" security companies, try and fit an alarm as early as possible with a gsm dialler to ring you if it goes off, make it secure as early in the project as possible, try and fit high value items last, copper pipe, radiators and boilers etc.

If you use common sense you will not go wrong, good tradesmen are not cheap and will manage themselves, cheap tradesmen are not good and you have to manage them.

Allow a decent bit of cash as a contingency fund, if you dont use it, treat yourself to a holiday when the project is complete.

The last statement is "you get what you pay for"

Good Luck, and yes you make your own luck!