winter tyre disappoinment

[DavidL]

This isn't going to be one of those "is it worth it" type of threads but I need a few optinions as to what to do next.

We've had a couple of impreza wrx over the years and I've never bothered with winter tyres as they were so capable. Our drive is on a bit of a slope especially at the entrance, but the cars just sailed up much like my old range rover does.

Now my wife's car is the c55 and I know from trying with my 944 that there is no way it was going up the drive on summer tyres. Additionally I wanted her to be able to get about should it snow so I bought a set of alloys with winter dunlop sp sports in the correct 17" size as per the hand book.

I knew it was forecast to snow earlier in the year so I put the car away for the night and sure enough it was white over and about 5" deep.

Into the car I jump, TC off just in case and we moved, about 3 feet. Wheels spinning, no traction. To say I was disappointed was an understatement. I had to dig the car out to just leave the garage. On the road it was ok, no dramas and a bit of slithering on uphill junctions. But coming home sure enough I got to the bottom of the drive and stopped. An hours clearing and slithering and we were up. This is the same drive and conditions the scooby sailed up on variably worn summer tyres.

Now I have always been a bit sceptical about how just changing rubber makes an unworkable car work but I seen the youtube vids and thought I must be wrong. So I was really quite disappointed.

So anyone care to suggest why they were such a failure? I know its a powerful rwd but I have a fairly gentle left foot if need be. And I expected the tyres to do their job.

It also begs the question what to do for this year.

David

 

[Bellow]

Into the car I jump, TC off just in case

In case of what?
There are instances where the TC is better switched off, but much better left on. There's a clue in its name.

 

[DavidL]

It also kicks in, as its name suggests, and stops you using the little momentum you have gained to make progress. A little wheel spin just over the point of traction loss is easily controlled by your R foot. It seems pretty common practice to keep it off if it's snowy and certainly I made more progress that way.
If you prefer it on that's entirely your choice and fine by me.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Were the tyres brand new? I’ve read that the winter performance of them falls off a cliff at something like 3/4mm?

 

[Stratman]

So you leave the traction control on when there's little to no chance of needing it, and turn it off in conditions of poor traction

 

[fabes]

One of the few instances when I believe my winters helped me (in the CLK) was almost exactly as you describe, albeit a hotel car park 'oop north' a few years ago.

The over night snow wasn't deep (an inch perhaps, and not a 'blokes inch' ) but I just put in it drive and let it make its own way up, passing a 3 series that was doing similar but had stopped half way up the 10 metre drive going nowhere
TC was on (wouldn't have thought to turn it off) but no pedal applied, just let the car creep.
No slip, just steady progress.

New Hankook Winter icpet 2 tyres on my standard staggered alloys, so not thin....

And that's what I have found with winters in the south below 7c and even below -7c as well as when I have had to go through snow up north or very occasionally down here. I really haven't noticed they are one as in normal traction occurs.
They won't perform miracles, and perhaps the lack of grab on the front was a contributing issue, or the Scooby is as good as some would make out. But then you You tube the 4x4 vs winter 2wd and the tyres make all the difference

Even though I have used them on the E Class coupe, I was intending to put them up for sale as I am no longer going up north in Jan and Feb for work now, but on the other hand, I might just keep them.....

 

[rf065]

So anyone care to suggest why they were such a failure? I know its a powerful rwd but I have a fairly gentle left foot if need be. And I expected the tyres to do their job.

I've used winter tyres for nearly 15 years now, I've never had this problem. Are the tyres new or second hand, remember winter tyres should be replaced when down to 4mm tread depth?
I've also never needed to switch the traction control off either, as the wheels rarely spin on snow, neither does the ABS get activated while braking, always plenty of grip at both ends.

 

[markjay]

I can't say that I am a snow driving expert, but having been driving since I was 18 on various roads in various countries, including snow, mud, sand, and rocky terrain, I know a bit about almost everything.....

Having the right tyres is just once piece in a puzzle.

The second piece is the car: a low, heavy, RWD car with a long wheelbase will always be disadvantaged compared to a higher, ligther, shorter, FWD or better-still AWD car.

The next piece is the driving technique. Different types of surfaces require different techniques. These can only be acquired through learning and training.

The last piece is the surface itself. Some types of surfaces will pose a challenge even for a Landy on snow tyres. In some snow conditions only chains will help. The driver needs to understand the limits of of their vehicle.

In short, fitting winter tyres on your car will certainly help when driving in snow or on icy roads, but it wont turn your car into a Polaris snowmobil..... I don't think the winter tyres are fault here, instead your expectations may have been too high.

 

[markjay]

The reason for switching-off TC/ESP is similar to why you would want to lock the diff on an off-roader.

The idea is that there are circumstances where you don't want to take-away power from a partially slipping wheel.

Taking away power from a spinning wheel may be the correct course of action on a paved surface, but this is not what you want the car to do when trying to get moving in deep snow, mud, or sand.

 

[grober]

Any large tyred RWD car is going to struggle on a steep slope covered with 5" of snow despite that weight transfer to the rear. Your problem possibly lies with the difference between how the traction control on the Mercedes works in comparison to the Scooby. By this time Merc were using a combination of selective individual wheel braking and reduced engine torque to mitigate rear wheel slippage whereas the Scooby would be running limited slip or locking differentials? That's my guess anyway.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

I turned off TC on my old S class in 2009/10 when we had bad weather.

I was able to power/wheelspin/burn up the hill away from our house several times, TC on just meant that I had no control.

The same worked going down the steep hill through the village, engage low gear and 'freewheel' down with the ability to use the rear wheels for keeping my speed down.

 

[m80]

I wait for the car to slip, the dash flashes to say TC has kicked in and in poor traction conditions that means less likely to get going.
With power removed from the lost traction wheel and the opposite corner brake a applied and progress halts.
I turn off the TC until moving at a few mph, then switch it on again.

I've tried a few different winter tyres, some are better than others.
I wouldn't touch 2nd hand as a few years old and the then harder rubber and they don't do the job. I've had 2nd hand Conti's that were useless.
I've also swapped from near new summers to new winters and felt the winters to be worse.

My last set of Nokian WR C3 weren't really impressive at new, but worse was after a few ,000 miles wear they sounded like the wheel bearings were shot, I thought they were till I put the summers back on.

I'm thinking I'll stick to all season tyres in future.

 

[DavidL]

All interesting stuff, thanks.
My expectations were that the car would go I suppose; as I said I always had my doubts but the internet said it would work!
Tyres were unused but maybe 4 yrs old from the codes. Too old?
TC on just seemed to cut the power before any meaningful movement. Off at least made some progress.
Scooby didn't have better ground clearance I don't think but careful gentle driving got you almost anywhere. Maybe I'm expecting too muchfor winters to match this but as someone said you watch the 4x4x summer v 2wd winters and the tyres make it.

 

[m80]

4 yrs old from the codes. Too old?

Methinks yes. It's said that a standard tyre a 6 years is past being good, no matter how stored. Possibly winters are shot earlier.

4x4x summer v 2wd winters

I thought most 4x 4 tyres were mud and snow anyway.
Any I've sourced for the Gr Cherokee have been, and that's all that seemed available.
Never had an issue with road noise from those though, strange.

 

[markjay]

What the OP is saying is that 4x4 Suabru was fine in snow on summer tyres.

To the OP, yes, what you read is true, on icy an snowy roads an RWD car with winter tyres will adheres to the road surface better than a 4x4 with summer tyres.

But off-road, or in deep snow (or deep mud, or sand....), there's no substitute to a 4x4.

So what you read is essentially correct, but it does not apply to driving out of a drive covered in deep snow.

 

[DavidL]

What the OP is saying is that 4x4 Suabru was fine in snow on summer tyres.

To the OP, yes, what you read is true, on icy an snowy roads an RWD car with winter tyres will adheres to the road surface better than a 4x4 with summer tyres.

But off-road, or in deep snow (or deep mud, or sand....), there's no substitute to a 4x4.

So what you read is essentially correct, but it does not apply to driving out of a drive covered in deep snow.

You know you may have hit the nail on the head. If you can't get moving then any road characteristics are irrelevant. 4wd gives you more traction to get moving. Once under way winter rubber may well be more suited to the conditions and I didn't have any issues driving, maybe I would have on summer tyres.
Generally mainish road conditions even in the depth of winter are ok so you may not notice on 4wd and summers but its the first and last 100 yds of a journey that cause problems.
Food for thought. Thanks

 

[rf065]

You know you may have hit the nail on the head. If you can't get moving then any road characteristics are irrelevant. 4wd gives you more traction to get moving. Once under way winter rubber may well be more suited to the conditions and I didn't have any issues driving, maybe I would have on summer tyres.
Generally mainish road conditions even in the depth of winter are ok so you may not notice on 4wd and summers but its the first and last 100 yds of a journey that cause problems.
Food for thought. Thanks

You've got this all wrong, I've left 4x4's for dead from traffic lights in 6" of snow in a rear wheel drive CLK with winters. A 4x4 in snow on summers means all 4 wheels have very little traction. Something else does not add up here?

 

[MrRight]

note , not all winter tyres are created equal . Into addition some are biased towards different aspects of winter .

Which variant of the dunlop winters you have on the car eg winter sport 5 ?

The other issue as well or at least certainly on my winter tyres is they struggle above around 10 degrees c. During the winter, there were various times that temps rose to 13to 15 degrees which is not within operating temps. below 3 degrees though they were brilliant

 

[Deletedmember130310]

Turn around and reverse up the drive...fwd wins every time

 

[Rory]

I'm sure there will be people who have no problems but MBs just seem to be particualrly bad in snow. Colleague drove his 5 Series through the bad 2009/10 and 10/11 winters then got an E Class estate and first bit of snow he had to abandon it.

I use All Seasons year round on mine, but, touch wood, have never tested them in proper snow. We put winters on wife's 4Motion Tiguan and had to do a quick dash across country on untreated snow when the local station was closed - that started and stopped like it was on tarmac, but you had to be super careful not to get carried away as on corners it just wanted to slide sideways.