Winter Tyres - the great con???

[markjay]

..They do say to have the better tyres on the rears......

Not quite... the advice is to have same tyres all around, i.e. same make and model and same thread depth.

However, recognising the financial realities involved in maintaining a car, the advice is that if you end-up with two good tyres and two less-good tyres, then the better tyres should go in the rear (as opposed to the common belief in the older days, that the better tyres should be fitted to the front axle due to steering etc).

But it's neither recommended nor is ideal to have uneven tyre set-up in any configuration.

Personally I always change tyres in sets of 4, and I rotate them back-to-front to ensure even wear (on my RWD W204 the rears wear at a faster rate than the fronts, on my FWD Kia Soul II the fronts wear faster, which is as you would expect).

But then my mundane 16" tyres range from £65 per tyre for premium brands to as low as £30 for budget tyres.... not replacing them in sets of 4 would be false economy.

So having two better tyres on the rear is tolerable but only because car manufacturers understand that owners can't really be expected to always change tyres in sets of 4, especially given that some tyres sizes will cost a four-figure sum to replace as a complete set.

 

[markjay]

..They do say to have the better tyres on the rears......

Not quite... the advice is to have same tyres all around, i.e. same make and model and same thread depth.

However, recognising the financial realities involved in maintaining a car, the advice is that if you end-up with two good tyres and two less-good tyres, then as a rule the better tyres should go in the rear (as opposed to the common belief in the older days, that the better tyres should be fitted to the front axle due to steering etc).

But it's neither recommended nor is ideal ideal to have an uneven tyre set-up in any configuration.

Personally I always change tyres in sets of 4, and I rotate them back-to-front to ensure even wear (on my RWD W204 the rears wear at a faster rate than the fronts, on my FWD Kia Soul II the fronts wear faster, which is as you would expect).

But then my mundane 16" tyres range in price from £65 per tyre for top premium brands to as low as £30 for budget tyres.... not replacing them in sets of 4 would be false economy.

So having two better tyres on the rear is indeed tolerable, but only because car manufacturers understand that owners can't really be expected to always change tyres in sets of 4, especially given that some tyres sizes will cost a four-figure sum to replace as a complete set.

EDIT: just saw rf065's comment regarding fitting the better tyres at the front, I don't argue with that but at any rate my view is that the tyres should all the same and kept at even thread depth by rotating back-to-front (unless staggered wheels).

 

[Dryce]

That's been said for years with good reason, but before systems like ESP were fitted to cars. Mercedes at some point, contrary to everyone else, even said fit the best tyres to the front as ESP needs front wheel grip to work.

It's a bit of a conundrum.

Better Tyres In The Front Or Rear? Test Results » Oponeo.co.uk

 

[Istbclass]

Unfortunately all tyres are a compromise. Winter tyres have a huge advantage under 7 degrees but are worse above it, bald tryres have more grip in the dry but are useless in the wet. For the few days we have cold temperatures in the south I feel better with summer tyres. Problem in the UK is our weather is so variable, if like a lot of Europe we had more defined seasons we would know what tyres to fit.

 

[markjay]

According to the manufactures, summer tyres are good down to -20 degrees (that's when the rubber starts tobl harden and loses is friction/grip properties).

Of course the rubber compound of summer tyres is not optimal for sub-zero temperatures, but it is still well within the tyre's performance envelope.

In order to have the optimal tyre setup at all times you'll need to change them daily according to the weather forecast... but this is obviously not practical. Changing tyres between laps based on track conditions is one F1 technology that will always remain within the confines of the race track.

My point is... that I wouldn't worry about temperatures at all. My only concern is snow and icey conditions, which is when I would not want to be on the road driving a car equipped with summer tyres.

But as long as there's no snow or ice.... summer tyres are fine at any temperature (in the UK anyway).

 

[Rory]

That's been said for years with good reason, but before systems like ESP were fitted to cars. Mercedes at some point, contrary to everyone else, even said fit the best tyres to the front as ESP needs front wheel grip to work.

The handbook for my car says that.

Had some "fun" with Costco when they tried to put the rear wheels on the front! When I pointed out they were a different size I had a massive battle to get them to fit new fronts only. They had to get the store manager and made me sign a waiver.

I wouldn't mind but I was only changing them as they looked bad with the outer edges scrubbed - the main tread was still 4mm.

 

[MrRight]

Unfortunately all tyres are a compromise. Winter tyres have a huge advantage under 7 degrees but are worse above it, bald tryres have more grip in the dry but are useless in the wet. For the few days we have cold temperatures in the south I feel better with summer tyres. Problem in the UK is our weather is so variable, if like a lot of Europe we had more defined seasons we would know what tyres to fit.

I completely with winter tyres being worse above 7 degrees . In fact they can sometimes be as dangerous as summer tyres used below 7c vs when the winters are used above roughly 10c as I carelessly found out over the weekend. My mistake trying to drive in sport plus (but the winter tyres were fantastic below around 5c in sport plus) so I clumsily forgot to keep the car in comfort or at worst , sport . I honestly felt like I was driving on ice a few times . Came out of a junction like I'm Jack Reacher, sliding out , wheels completely spinning out without much throttle input , even having traction control kicking in which never happens to that extent . Came out of a roundabout the next day while carrying elderly passengers (again in sport plus ) and had the back wheels completely slipping a whole metre while not going very fast at all seemed to scare my father in law. fun for me but not for him. I had to ”comfort ” him by letting him know the car is designed to do that and then immediately stick it in comfort mode for the rest of the trip. I left it in comfort mode for the first time in a month today. Tempted to get the summer set back on though I expect it will be either very wet or cold or both in a couple of weeks ...

 

[Will]

 

[Bellow]

My point is... that I wouldn't worry about temperatures at all. My only concern is snow and icey conditions, which is when I would not want to be on the road driving a car equipped with summer tyres.
.

Yep, there's a load of tosh talked about winter tyres on snowless but cold roads. The road is so covered in slimey salt that comparisons are meaningless. It isn't any (summer or winter) tyre having no grip 10C north of freezing and below - it is that the salt on the road couldn't support grip.

 

[MrRight]

I switched back to summer tyres on Friday morning, and had a few admirers enjoying the rumble of the exhaust while the car was in the garage . it is fitting that merging onto the road from the tyre garage resulted in a beautiful slide out (only sport plus mode , not even race mode), which, though very enjoyable to execute and carry on after the turn for a few seconds was too easy to induce. I expected a lot more grip from the summer wheels in temps of around 11 degrees especially when the tread has almost 7mm remaining . just goes to show good winter tyres (alpin PA4) do grip the road very well but are much harder to drift with .

i spent the rest of the journey home sliding and making those MPSS tyres screech for mercy at every opportunity . driving with summer tyres allows a lot more fun sliding and drifting than winter tyres. I haven't been able to stop myself since either . feels like I've got a hot rod again , car didn't feel anywhere near as switched on with winter tyres but was a lot more comfortable.

 

[milleplod]

I've not read all of this thread, it's 10 pages long and I've been working my way down a very nice bottle of Monsparone Barolo Riserva , but I can just about manage to relate my experience of winter tyres. We live on a steepish hill - a half inch of snow renders it impassable to most traffic. I've used either Avon or Nokian winters for years, on both our cars. With them fitted, we can get up the hill - without them, we can't. That applies to the 'half inch' scenario or the much-less-frequent, much-more-than-that scenario. What's interesting is that my wife's 300bhp fwd Saab (Hirsched, you know! ) has the winters on all year round - all I do in summer is to up the pressures by around 5psi all-round - it feels no different, and handles no differently, to when it had summers on....and I'd defy anyone driving it on the road to be able to say 'it's on winters, it feels/handles like sh*t' - it doesn't, end of. The winters don't wear out any quicker than summers do - that might, I suppose, be a peculiarity of the tyre brand - they easily last for 2-3 years, or around 25k miles, although admittedly the fronts end up on the back eventually. I've not yet had my 280CDi Sport long enough to try it on winters - I have a set of refurbed 17" alloys replete with a mix of Vredesteins and Nokians ready to go on - but our neighbour's M3 is on Nokians and sails up the hill in snow, so I expect no less!

Cheers!

Pete

 

[elan362]

I live in Scotland and have put winter tyres on a second set of rims for the last decade. They make a huge difference

I fit them in November and remove them in April.
For me, I believe summer rubber has become more specialised / niche for 'summer' conditions as a result of a requirement to reduce noise, improve fuel economy etc, at the expense of 4 season capability. So modern tyres have become better at what they do at the expense of winter performance

The other think to factor in is once you have winter wheels, you summer rubber lasts twice as long....so once you have a second set of rims, it is equivalent to buying a second set of tyres across the lifespan of your car ownership. And you can sell your winter wheels when you change car. To recoup some of the cost

Eg, for my MX5, I picked up a set of 16" alloys for £100. Put 4x continental winter tyres on them for £100 a corner, so in for £500. I Used them for 2 winters. (Preventing wear on my summer rubber, and salt damage to the nice 17" good wheels and benefiting from the winter tyre performance) and I sold them for £300

I've just picked up a set of 17" OEM MB wheels with TPMS and serviceable winter tyre (6mm tread) that will last for 1 or 2 winters off Gumtree for £425 delivered.
So it has cost me £125 to change my MX5 winter setup to the MB. Can't argue with that.
w205 250d AMG winter wheel options

 

[Deleted member 126251]

I live in Scotland and have put winter tyres on a second set of rims for the last decade. They make a huge difference

I fit them in November and remove them in April............

I think a lot depends on where you live. My wife's car is due for new tyres and I'll fit all season tyres. However where I live (and I'm retired and do not need to go out every day) for the odd few really cold days that we might get in winter there is really no need for me to have winter wheels and I then do not have to store 8 wheels all years round.

 

[grober]

Being a bit of a "DIY buff" you are thinking of buying a new Lithium -ion cordless drill. ------------------Do you ask Ted next door who has has gone thro at least 4 of the b*****s that you know of , or Neville across the road who usually "gets a man in for that sort of thing"?

 

[elan362]

Being a bit of a "DIY buff" you are thinking of buying a new Lithium -ion cordless drill. ------------------Do you ask Ted next door who has has gone thro at least 4 of the b*****s that you know of , or Neville across the road who usually "gets a man in for that sort of thing"?

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say with that analogy!

 

[MercedesDriver]

Yes, it's That time of a year again and with the change of a car the time has come to look for a new set of Winter tyres. After visiting all online tyre retailers the best and cheapest offer was from Costco with £80 discount for a set of Goodyear 18s.
Set of 245/45/18 100V Ultragrip performance + XL for my car came to 60 pence short of £110 per corner, not bad me thinks.
Bear in mind, Costco offer has been extended for a week from initial offer end on 10/10/21.

 

[grober]

My only comment would be get your order in early if you intend to purchase?? Even pre Br***t and C**** tyre suppliers tended to order in a certain limited stock pre season leading to decreasing choice for late adopters----this may be more likely to occur in todays supply environment??

 

[W1ghty]

Story in the Telegraph today that the HGV shortage may result in less gritting during the winter , so it might be even more worth having winters on our rear wheel drive cars

 

[Deleted member 159894]

Steady on chaps, I’ve not even got my Winter shorts out yet.

 

[MercedesDriver]

According to meteorological implications, the hair on a cow's neck and the temperatures during the first week of August this year Winter weather will be unpredictable in the UK.