190e engine conversion experts please!

[gunning]

Right guys.... Been looking around and seeing a few options but I'm wondering what is the best value for money/ performance.

I'm trying to work out what engine to shoe horn into an190e and what base to use?

I'm guessing a 2.6 manual is a good starter as the base.

Few engines I've seen but know little about (I have a great fabricator so structural work isn't an issue)

2.3 kompressor out of a w202 with a manual box
5.0 m119 v8
Supra 1jz or 2jz 3.0 twin turbo
C36 3.6 amg engine

I'm not after just a 300 engine or something like that in one as it's simply not enough power. Can anybody share some advice on what they've done or seen and pros and cons of certain engines.

Basically I'm now in a position to build a evo2 dtm replica car but I want some serious poke to go with it.

Any advice would be great!

Here's an example of what I will be building

 

[jaymanek]

M119 with a manual box has been done with some serious customisation. Possible but not easy.

M117 easier but again customisation required to firewall, steering gear etc etc.

How about a m104 with twin turbo? Easier to do as similar dimensions to the 2.6

 

[John Jones Jr]

Bear in mind if using possibly any six pot, especially M103/M104's you'll need a 190E 2.6 as a base due to the different location of the steering box compared to M102 cars.

As for serious poke, I imagine you'll need to go forced induction i.e. turbo, out of your list I'd opt for the toyota 1/2JZ's along with it's manaul g/box. Keeping with the Merc theme a modern single turbo'ed & aftermarket standalone ECU M103/104 could be the ticket. Or a turbo'ed version of the M111 2.3 Kompressor, 400bhp no issue on stock internals but that was with standalone ECU. Whatever you decide and I think it's really a matter of personal taste it's going to cost and that might be the deciding factor. The only other possible downside is picking a suitable manual box and I think you may have to get a dog leg Getrag from a 16V 190, they are very strong.

Being candid, if it's a DTM style car you're after as per the photo some would say the base car should be a 16V and then for extra poke you require turbo it, again with a standalone engine management.

BTW, there was/is a company in Easter Europe selling EVOII rep kits, check eBay and join the Mercedes190couk club.

 

[jonnyboy]

If you go down the 6 pot route, what about a 104.981 ? 231bhp as a starting point, 3 litre 24 valve. Not sure how tuneable they are, but essentially the same size/shape as a 2.6 so a piece of the proverbial to put in, and not too complex on the electronics either.....

 

[carat 3.6]

Right guys.... Been looking around and seeing a few options but I'm wondering what is the best value for money/ performance.

I'm trying to work out what engine to shoe horn into an190e and what base to use?

I'm guessing a 2.6 manual is a good starter as the base.

Few engines I've seen but know little about (I have a great fabricator so structural work isn't an issue)

2.3 kompressor out of a w202 with a manual box
5.0 m119 v8
Supra 1jz or 2jz 3.0 twin turbo
C36 3.6 amg engine

I'm not after just a 300 engine or something like that in one as it's simply not enough power. Can anybody share some advice on what they've done or seen and pros and cons of certain engines.

Basically I'm now in a position to build a evo2 dtm replica car but I want some serious poke to go with it.

Any advice would be great!

Here's an example of what I will be building

Best to start with the 2.6 190 as your base car, the different slam panel and steering box location makes life easier. But if I was doing it the steering box would be replaced by a rack from a w210.

I've done a few engine swaps on 190's, you dont want to use the m104. They are very nose heavy with the iron block 6cyl fitted, and even the 3.6 is not that fast unless your going to modify it. The twin turbo versions need alot of work to only get the power of a v8.

The 5.6 m117 is a nice easy swap without cutting the car around, and will get you to 300hp if you use the ece version. Or fit standalone engine managment for 350-360hp. The m119 needs some metalwork though due to the width of the heads.

The jz supra engines are an awesome bit of kit, and have a massive aftermarket support for tunning parts unlike the merc engines. There is a guy in oz running a 400+hp 2jz, it's quite the street sleeper.

As Jjr has said, the m111 kompressor engine can make 400hp when running a decent turbo setup on the standard engine. Mosselmann used to make a cast turbo manifold for just that. Running the m111 would also give the car a nice weight balance.

Forget the dogleg getrag box from the cosworth 190 though, it's a bit stronger than the normal 5 speed but not very nice to use. It's mainly the massively over-complicated gear lever linkage that is the problem. The later 6 speed from the w203 is much nicer to use when fitted with a short shift, it is also stronger too. I run one on my w124 superturbo at over 557lbft without a problem.

For your project I would go with a 5.4 m113 and 6 speed manual, it's all alloy so doesn't weigh a huge amount and you have the option of running the kompressor setup if you want more power. Run the w210 steering rack and fabrication can be kept to a minimum

 

[John Jones Jr]

A lot of good points Carat. I think I'd be leaning towards the M111 with 6sp box. Close on a straight swap, no need to touch the steering or the need for a base 2.6 190 and the engine has a compression ratio already suitable for turbocharging. All that should keep costs contained, maybe allowing for more expenditure on top notch suspension and brakes etc..


Edit. No, on reflection you're right Carat, the M113 on standalone with a 6 speeder is the way to go!

 

[carat 3.6]

Spot on Jhon.

Bolt in swap using factory parts, no fab work to the body shell. Use the alloy manifold from the w124 e220 to help build a tasty inlet setup, t34ish turbo should be about right for the hot side of things.

Hell, run an als system!

 

[John Jones Jr]

Spot on Jhon.

See my edit

 

[carat 3.6]

See my edit

Sneaked that past me didn't you.

 

[carat 3.6]

I suppose it comes down to noise and simplicity (m113), or handling and big balls (m111t).

Or be a raving loon and run an om601/4 combo @ 2.5 bar of boost

 

[gunning]

Woah some great info there guys! I really appreciate it and definitely what I need! My first step needs to be to actually buy myself a 2.6 then?

I have wondered, If I'm just using essentially the shell... Is it possible to say use an rb25 skyline lump, ecu etc and just essentially swap it all over (I know it'd need fabrication) I'm not the mechanic I am simply the owner with plans. Hence why I may sound a bit thick in terms of how to do it.

 

[John Jones Jr]

The RB25 transplant has been done previously that's for sure so it is possible. Can't tell you anymore sorry to say. One minor detail, if you go 2.6 and are retaining the steering system, try and get a 2.6 with Sportline chassis, you'll then have the important bit of the S/line chassis i.e. the higher ratio steering box.

The other thing I'd say about any transplant and modifications is watch the costs, a lot of the wilder/madder/extreme transplants have been carried out by owners with almost all the skills and equipment to do so (lucky people), thus labour costs are kept to a minimum. I've been pricing up a project myself since late last year and to do it right the 'budget' has near on doubled!

Also too, think about resale value of the finished car just in case it's ends up not being a longtime keeper - who knows. And if you don't mind me saying from a personal viewpoint, there's a lot to be said for doing a Merc engine transplant into a Merc. Really, Carat would seem to have hit the nail on the head with the M113 5.4 + Standalone + 6 speeder imo, the more cylinders the better?

No doubt a lot of the above is like telling your Grandmother how to suck eggs but better said than not, I reckon.

 

[poormansporsche]

PM Mazza - hes got my old 190e with a 300 24v manual - would be a good start point if he wants to out it !

Ive had both a 3.2 M104 190 auto and a 300 24v manual and although didnt have masses over power both "felt" pretty damn quick !

Ive also been in the passenger seat of a 3.6 manual and it was scary ! I dont think id want any more power !

 

[gunning]

The RB25 transplant has been done previously that's for sure so it is possible. Can't tell you anymore sorry to say. One minor detail, if you go 2.6 and are retaining the steering system, try and get a 2.6 with Sportline chassis, you'll then have the important bit of the S/line chassis i.e. the higher ratio steering box. The other thing I'd say about any transplant and modifications is watch the costs, a lot of the wilder/madder/extreme transplants have been carried out by owners with almost all the skills and equipment to do so (lucky people), thus labour costs are kept to a minimum. I've been pricing up a project myself since late last year and to do it right the 'budget' has near on doubled! Also too, think about resale value of the finished car just in case it's ends up not being a longtime keeper - who knows. And if you don't mind me saying from a personal viewpoint, there's a lot to be said for doing a Merc engine transplant into a Merc. Really, Carat would seem to have hit the nail on the head with the M113 5.4 + Standalone + 6 speeder imo, the more cylinders the better? No doubt a lot of the above is like telling your Grandmother how to suck eggs but better said than not, I reckon.

I fully appreciate your guidance and opinions, it's certainly not telling me how to suck eggs as some times I think a general view from others is useful.

I am heading towards a v8 in my mind but for this I'm going to need a 190e so my search has started. I'm not going for a silly spec or low mileage. I'd prefer a beat to death one as it's going to be stripped virtually to it's shell.

 

[SL300-24]

I might be able to help you,my mate has a 2.6 with a blown head gasket he is considering selling. PM me your details and I will give you some info.

 

[carat 3.6]

PM Mazza - hes got my old 190e with a 300 24v manual - would be a good start point if he wants to out it !

Ive had both a 3.2 M104 190 auto and a 300 24v manual and although didnt have masses over power both "felt" pretty damn quick !

That 300 24v would be ideal as a starting point, I could be wrong but I think Mazza has upgraded the suspension now too.

Brett your 3.2 was a lovely thing to drive, very torquey with the gearing it had. It was the interior I fell in love with.

 

[carat 3.6]

This is running a c43 engine and slush box, now think of it with the 55 6 speed dropped in...

[YOUTUBE]BdU8f13VFa8[/YOUTUBE]

 

[John Jones Jr]

now think of it with the 55 6 speed dropped in...

Indeed, c.265Bhp/ton plus loads of torque. I think too, the beauty about the power of the V8's in a light car like the W201 is that there's far less need to worry about the overall cars weight. If the preference is for a comfy interior rather than stripped or minimal one it will have little effect on performance for example, less requirement for expensive forged alloys (always nice to have ideally) or that expensive lightweight exhaust system, having the longer range 70l fuel tank etc, etc.

 

[poormansporsche]

That 300 24v would be ideal as a starting point, I could be wrong but I think Mazza has upgraded the suspension now too.

Brett your 3.2 was a lovely thing to drive, very torquey with the gearing it had. It was the interior I fell in love with.

I rang the geezer up a month ago who i sold it to and asked if he would sell it back to me and he said he wouldnt sell it even if i offered him twice what he paid for it !!!!!!!!!!!

I was a **** to sell it

 

[d w124]

I was a **** to sell it

Even a bigger one here for not buying it