Please take a moment to read & reflect.

[brucemillar]

Guys

Please take a minute to read this and sign the petition and support the work of BRAKE http://www.brake.org.uk/.

Thank You.

 

[James Copeland]

Don't always agree with BRAKE but happy to support on this

 

[st13phil]

I'll be honest and say that I am totally unconvinced by many of Brake's arguments which are often rooted in emotion and prejudice and do not stand up to real scrutiny.

Regarding the petition, I commend everyone to actually read the relevant Sentencing Guidelines before making up their mind whether or not to support it.

I fully understand that a death on the road is a tragedy, and we should make every effort to avoid them happening. But does anyone really believe that the tragic consequences of a momentary lapse of attention that in any other circumstances would have had no adverse consequences should receive a draconian punishment because in this particular instance it resulted in a tragic outcome? And furthermore, do you honestly believe that the momentary lapse of attention would somehow not have happened if the driver concerned had known that it would result in many years in jail?

 

[renault12ts]

Have to agree with the above. They seem to be tarring everyone with the same brush.

 

[Yugguy]

They need to massively up the sentences for reckless driving, drunk and drug driving and holding a bloody phone, I agree.

But I was watching Police Interceptors last night where they showed a vid of some daft drunk tosser who just ran straight out of the pub, into the road and got knocked over, nothing the car driver could do.

he wasn't seriously injured but if he had been it would have been nobody's fault but his own.

 

[renault12ts]

Holding a phone is a red herring...holding the conversation on the phone (handsfree or not) is the problem.

What about fiddling with the sat nav...etc?

 

[grober]

As I understand it the problem lies with burden of proof arguements for the offence the driver is charged with. It's evidently very difficult to prove "intent" in terms of how the legislation is framed. The practical conseqence of this is that individuals initially charged with the more serious end [ often fatalities involved] of the road traffic offences spectrum ---- "lawyer up" and "cop a plea" to a lesser offence to use the American vernacular. The crown prosecution are often complicit in this practice apparently preferring certainty over possibility of a guilty verdict . What is required is possibly a change in how the law is framed rather than the sentence itself.

 

[st13phil]

As I understand it the problem lies with burden of proof arguements for the offence the driver is charged with. It's evidently very difficult to prove "intent" in terms of how the legislation is framed.

This is absolutely true. IMO, it's a very dangerous step to simply increase the minimum sentence - as argued by the Brake petition - when the real issue is the difficulty in proving intent. It's also completely unacceptable (for reasons obvious to most) to turn causing death while driving into an absolute offence which requires just the act to secure conviction, in a similar way to how driving without insurance is handled.

Another thing worth noting is that juries are less likely to convict if they view the likely punishment as disproportionate, which would exacerbate the "problem" that Brake perceive.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

I am yet to see one of these petitions that I would be happy to support, why do people continue to promote them? Mischief making maybe?

 

[grober]

I am yet to see one of these petitions that I would be happy to support, why do people continue to promote them? Mischief making maybe?

Not at all-the people's motivation is genuine enough its just sometimes the execution leaves something to be desired. There are numerous examples of this inadequacy of the law to protect its citizens from the lethal consequences of bad or irresponsible driving. The recent bin lorry crash in Glasgow being a classic example.

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/driving-incidents-roadrage/183444-serious-incident-glasgow.html

 

[brucemillar]

This particular instance is not about a "momentary lapse in concentration" . It is all about several documented instances by the same driver on the same journey carrying out "dangerous" overtakes. The implication being here that he stopped doing so simply because he crashed. had he not crashed his driving would most likely have continued to be dangerous and reckless.

We see so many articles about drivers who admit to "stupid mistake" when what they really mean is "I was caught" and for that I am sorry. Had I not been caught I would still have done it and would have continued doing it. Be it drink driving or dangerous driving.

Somebody has to make a stand. People dying on our roads is no strain on our law makers or enforcers. It is absorbed by the relatives of those who are killed and often lost in their grief.

In my view (and I am sure many will disagree) there is a culture where some people see bad driving as something that they can do and get away with. In the same way that we a culture of people who continue to drink and drive simply because they know that they can get away with it. Kill somebody? Claim it was momentary lapse or a silly mistake. A few months in prison and out you come free to continue where you left off.

Last week in Kent we had a mass outpouring of sympathy for young man who killed himself by crashing his van while three times over the drink drive limit. Witnesses said he had drunk more than six pints of lager before setting off to drive home. Not one challenged about driving. But all stood up and were happy to be quoted claiming it was "tragic" that this one mistake had cost him his life. Fine: Even when it was pointed out to them that it was actually SIX mistakes in terms of drink then a seventh mistake by getting in the car, maybe an eighth mistake by not considering his eight month pregnant wife or anybody who he met on his way home. Police estimate the he drove into a 90 degree bend at 60+ MPH, was not wearing a seatbelt and had been flashed by several passing cars due to his wandering over the road.

But still they stood there and mourned his "momentary lapse". Really? I would guess that this guy (who was drinking in his "Local" did this most nights. This night he was killed. Had he not been he would still be doing it.

I applaud the fact that somebody is making a stand and not simply counting coffins and bemoaning "momentary lapses"

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Not at all-the people's motivation is genuine enough its just sometimes the execution leaves something to be desired. There are numerous examples of this inadequacy of the law to protect its citizens from the lethal consequences of bad or irresponsible driving. The recent bin lorry crash in Glasgow being a classic example.

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/driving-incidents-roadrage/183444-serious-incident-glasgow.html

Agree, the motivation is laudable if a bit obvious. It's the woolly minded presentation of the petition and the volume of requests to sign up to them via social media that I object to.
It's becoming a little akin to the 'chuggers' that bother shoppers on our high streets.

 

[st13phil]

I applaud the fact that somebody is making a stand and not simply counting coffins and bemoaning "momentary lapses"

I don't think I've said anywhere that outright bad driving (or driving while under the influence) that results in death is a "momentary lapse" of anything. The reality is that people who kill on the roads in those circumstances can be and are sentenced to the full tariff - 14 years - but that fact doesn't fit Brake's campaign.

The other reality is that by far the largest number of deaths on the road happen as a result of dumb bad luck, not through idiotic behaviour. Wrong place, wrong time, catastrophic consequences. The law and the sentencing of those convicted has to recognise the full spectrum of culpability. Some believe it does, while some believe it doesn't.

As Mencken said, "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong".

 

[davidjpowell]

I can't see the petition, so will reserve a view on that specific instance, however I have yet to hear a Brake spokesperson who I can fully agree with, and whom are able to take a realstic two sided view.

Their mantra appears to be speed kills, let's impose lower speed limits, without considering that a) it's inappropriate speed that kills and b)If someone is speeding, reducing the speed limit is not going to affect them.

 

[grober]

Where motoring enthusiasts have to beware is when people starting talking in terms of their inalienable right to drive a car how and where they like. Up till now we have enjoyed relative freedom in that respect but my message would be---- don't push it. Antagonise enough people and its likely these freedoms will be eroded further. That's why we should listen to legitimate concerns and vital to have effective controls on bad/ dangerous driving lest good drivers end up suffering the consequences of yet further regulation . Average speed cameras and urban speed bumps are only two that come come to mind as a consequence of enough people thinking they have the right to drive how they like.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Where motoring enthusiasts have to beware is when people starting talking in terms of their inalienable right to drive a car how and where they like. Up till now we have enjoyed relative freedom in that respect but my message would be---- don't push it. Antagonise enough people and its likely these freedoms will be eroded further. That's why we should listen to legitimate concerns and vital to have effective controls on bad/ dangerous driving lest good drivers end up suffering the consequences of yet further regulation . Average speed cameras and urban speed bumps are only two that come come to mind as a consequence of enough people thinking they have the right to drive how they like.

Again, I agree with the sentiment of your post but think that it's a bit late for your warnings. The ability to enjoy motoring for the sake of it has been driven out of towns for many years.
The world is changing rapidly, I have an example. I am no longer given a choice regarding recycling, my local authority have decided that consigning recyclable materials to landfill is now illegal. As a result I am not allowed to dump any recyclable materials in my black bags any longer.

Some people call it the nanny state or, even, big brother. Whichever, it's become very difficult to do anything but bow to the rules that have been put in place.

So, my point (eventually) is that we don't need petitions or requests to sign up to them because the rules are unavoidable.

 

[219]

This particular instance is not about a "momentary lapse in concentration" . It is all about several documented instances by the same driver on the same journey carrying out "dangerous" overtakes. The implication being here that he stopped doing so simply because he crashed. had he not crashed his driving would most likely have continued to be dangerous and reckless.

We see so many articles about drivers who admit to "stupid mistake" when what they really mean is "I was caught" and for that I am sorry. Had I not been caught I would still have done it and would have continued doing it. Be it drink driving or dangerous driving.

Somebody has to make a stand. People dying on our roads is no strain on our law makers or enforcers. It is absorbed by the relatives of those who are killed and often lost in their grief.

In my view (and I am sure many will disagree) there is a culture where some people see bad driving as something that they can do and get away with. In the same way that we a culture of people who continue to drink and drive simply because they know that they can get away with it. Kill somebody? Claim it was momentary lapse or a silly mistake. A few months in prison and out you come free to continue where you left off.

Last week in Kent we had a mass outpouring of sympathy for young man who killed himself by crashing his van while three times over the drink drive limit. Witnesses said he had drunk more than six pints of lager before setting off to drive home. Not one challenged about driving. But all stood up and were happy to be quoted claiming it was "tragic" that this one mistake had cost him his life. Fine: Even when it was pointed out to them that it was actually SIX mistakes in terms of drink then a seventh mistake by getting in the car, maybe an eighth mistake by not considering his eight month pregnant wife or anybody who he met on his way home. Police estimate the he drove into a 90 degree bend at 60+ MPH, was not wearing a seatbelt and had been flashed by several passing cars due to his wandering over the road.

But still they stood there and mourned his "momentary lapse". Really? I would guess that this guy (who was drinking in his "Local" did this most nights. This night he was killed. Had he not been he would still be doing it.

I applaud the fact that somebody is making a stand and not simply counting coffins and bemoaning "momentary lapses"

Sorry Bruce , but I have no idea which particular instance you are referring to ? There's nothing in the Brake link at the beginning of the thread , and the one above your post refers to the Harry Clarke incident in Glasgow .

I do agree that persistent offenders , or those whose actions are clearly reckless and deliberate , ought to have the book thrown at them - but there is already provision in law for this .

Regarding 'momentary lapses' , something , if we are all honest , we are all guilty of at some time or another , usually without any serious consequences , I know of one example with tragic repercussions :

A woman , who was a neighbour of my mother , was widowed and lived with her two young children . The story , as far as I understand , was that she was returning home with the children in their child seats in the back when something the children did distracted her ; she turned round to look at the children and , in so doing , veered across the A road into the path of an oncoming vehicle . The woman died in the resulting crash , along with her young daughter , and the little boy was orphaned and ended up going to live with his grandparents .

There is no question that being distracted and turning round to look at a misbehaving child is ill-advised , but what parent hasn't been distracted by their children at some time ? The woman who died was probably a normal , reasonable driver who would never knowingly take risks with her children in the car , but due to a 'momentary lapse' paid the ultimate price , and even worse , so did her daughter .

The victim could just as easily have been a pedestrian , cyclist or occupant of another vehicle - the outcome is just as bad as it gets , but even if that mother had survived , would she have deserved punishment for an error that had caused the death of her child , or could just as easily have been someone else ?

If it is a genuine mistake , such as any of us might make , and which is out of character , then it should not merit harsh sentencing - for most , having to live with the consequences is the greatest punishment , and regardless of court sanctions there is little chance of the mistake being repeated .

I suspect that most road deaths result from tragic mistakes , and not deliberate acts of wanton recklessness .

 

[st13phil]

^ My point exactly.

Had she lived, Brake would have had her jailed for at least 20 years for killing a child

 

[brucemillar]

Guys

I am talking about the incident in the OP. There was no "momentary lapse" the driver was (as witnessed) seen to have made several overtakes and be driving at "dangerous"speeds enough to alarm other motorists. This leading up the final overtake that caused the fatality. In short he was driving for an extended period of time like a nob and then caused a fatal accident.

The other incident I referenced was to highlight how people often claim a momentary lapse or a single mistake. The implication being that they are perfect humans who for one second in life got it wrong. Often what we find is that they were creatures of habitual bad practice, who's "mistake" was in getting caught when they could not escape.

It is broad church and I do not wish to tar all. I was referring to the incident in the OP and how BRAKE are campaigning and being supported by the family of the unfortunate victim of that incident.

st13phil. I was not directing my responses at you, or anybody else on here.

I still say though, that if nobody makes a stand, then nothing changes. We may not always agree entirely with that stand but to blame the messenger may not help our cause if we then are affected by the message.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

There is no 'incident' in the OP, just a link to a petition.