Wife has another ticket is it a proper one?? (Chester Bache station)

[MOCAŠ]

They have a perfectly viable way of doing that if they chose (e.g. entrance & exit barriers + ticket refunded in supermarket), but instead they choose to allow companies to "control" their car park by sending out speculative invoices

I think you've misunderstood. The car park isn't controlled by a system of invoices, they are just issued to customers that haven't paid for their parking. I'm not familiar with this particular car park, but it's fair to assume that the supermarket will have some form of pay and display or time-based system in operation. Having barriers is all well and good, but if some of the spaces are shared with the station car park, which is free for rail customers to use, then installing barriers probably isn't feasible. As mentioned, it comes down to whether the signage made it clear that the space used by the OP's wife belonged to the supermarket.

 

[st13phil]

Fine. So you can therefore park anywhere you like that doesn't have an entry/exit barrier in the safe knowledge that you don't have to pay a penny.

Not quite...

If it's a pay and display facility, or one where you are expected to pay on entrance or exit, whether council or privately run then you have to pay a fee. The interesting bit is when it comes to penalties. In general, absent a court hearing, a private parking company can only claim for genuine loss, and cannot levy a penalty charge. They use various weasel words to claim that they can levy a penalty, but they can't and on the rare case that they do try to enforce using the courts they either bottle it at the last minute so that they don't get a judgement recorded against them, or they lose.

I'm not saying that this is either good or bad from the point of view of the landowner, but that's how it works.

 

[Kingy68]

If there's a case for inadequate or ambiguous signage, then you can see if it's worth appealing.

If it's not Police or Council and instead a private parking company (in which case it's an invoice and not enforcable) then DO NOT appeal. All their appeal system is designed for is to ascertain who was driving the vehicle. Without this they cannot go any further as they simply get the registered keepers details from the DVLA.
By all means look into it and pay if legitimate but if its a private company issuing an invoice then you have the option of ignoring it as their charges are ridiculous and have no reflection of any reasonable costs.

Have a look at what to expect here. Last post.
http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/driv.../113534-asda-car-park-fine-5.html#post1350579

 

[MOCAŠ]

If it's a pay and display facility, or one where you are expected to pay on entrance or exit, whether council or privately run then you have to pay a fee. The interesting bit is when it comes to penalties. In general, absent a court hearing, a private parking company can only claim for genuine loss, and cannot levy a penalty charge. They use various weasel words to claim that they can levy a penalty, but they can't and on the rare case that they do try to enforce using the courts they either bottle it at the last minute so that they don't get a judgement recorded against them, or they lose.

I'm not saying that this is either good or bad from the point of view of the landowner, but that's how it works.

So what you're saying is that rather than claim £50 or whatever the going rate is, the parking company should just claim for the advertised rate for the amount of time the car was parked?

 

[st13phil]

The car park isn't controlled by a system of invoices, they are just issued to customers that haven't paid for their parking.

Like you, I'm not familiar with the carpark in question, but I guess that if it's shared twixt supermarket and station then all except the bays allocated to the station will have a notice somewhere that says "free parking for supermarket customers for the first x hours, after which you agree to pay a fee of £60" (or whatever).

As a free carpark, it's difficult to see what monetary loss has been incurred by someone parking for more than "x" hours in a bay so, as penalty cannot be levied, there's nothing to pay - unless the driver is proven in court to have entered into a contract that they have breeched.

 

[st13phil]

So what you're saying is that rather than claim £50 or whatever the going rate is, the parking company should just claim for the advertised rate for the amount of time the car was parked?

Basically, yes - that's all they're entitled to without a court judgement that there has been a breech of contract. But if it's a free carpark, the fee lost is zero...

 

[Dryce]

So what you're saying is that rather than claim £50 or whatever the going rate is, the parking company should just claim for the advertised rate for the amount of time the car was parked?

Well there does appear to be just one relevant court case so far.

And the company concerned wasn't deemed to be entitled to a penalty as such. Just the parking charges at the normal rate and the DVLA search fees.

The implication is that if you offered them that prior to it going to court then that would be reasonable.

You might infer from that if the carpark was free that they'd be entitled to ..... nothing .... nada ..... zilch.

 

[MOCAŠ]

As a free carpark, it's difficult to see what monetary loss has been incurred by someone parking for more than "x" hours in a bay so

But I understood that the station spaces were free to use for rail customers, and - I guess - the supermarket spaces are free to use (up to a reasonable time limit) for supermarket customers.

So if a rail customer parks in a supermarket space and buggers off, the supermarket has lost an amenity for their customers. While one customer doing this probably makes little or no difference, they would need some way of discouraging everyone from doing it.

 

[MOCAŠ]

Basically, yes - that's all they're entitled to without a court judgement that there has been a breech of contract. But if it's a free carpark, the fee lost is zero...

Well there does appear to be just one relevant court case so far.

And the company concerned wasn't deemed to be entitled to a penalty as such. Just the parking charges at the normal rate and the DVLA search fees.

The implication is that if you offered them that prior to it going to court then that would be reasonable.

You might infer from that if the carpark was free that they'd be entitled to ..... nothing .... nada ..... zilch.

I've said this before on other similar threads, but widespread abuse of supermarket parking spaces will inevitably end in one of two outcomes: supermarkets will start charging for parking, and/or will hand the control of their car parks over to local authorities so that fines can be enforced. I know of one supermarket car park near my brother's place that is already under local authority control.

 

[Dryce]

I've said this before on other similar threads, but widespread abuse of supermarket parking spaces will inevitably end in one of two outcomes: supermarkets will start charging for parking, and/or will hand the control of their car parks over to local authorities so that fines can be enforced. I know of one supermarket car park near my brother's place that is already under local authority control.

I think that's more satisfactory than having these parking companies putting out assertive invoices that look like official notices and making unsubstantiated claims about their right to charge the registered keeper.

 

[neilrr]

A210AMG,

You are asking these questions on the wrong forum. Go here - FightBack Forums

 

[wxmclk]

I would tend to ignore it too. This is occuring more and more, and I know that my in-laws have ignored a similar type fine (issued here in Wrexham at the Border Retail Park- Dreams/Dunelm Elm shops).
They have had loads of correspondence, the so called 'debt' has been sold, and then sold again. The price has gone up and down, but, they have stood their ground and ignored it.
No house visits, no phone calls, just letters from time to time.
This started well over 14 months ago too.
My view is similar to the others, if not enforced by a traffic warden/Couucil official or police officer then I understand that the problem will go away

 

[wxmclk]

Should say though that before I had more knowledge on this subject that I was caught out, also locally at Cheshire Oaks. Parked in the staff area and was issued with £60 ticket. I paid it and now wish I hadn't bothered.

 

[Rory]

Im fairly certain the laws recently passed mean they cant enforce these tickets...

Laws recently passed (to do with banning clamping) mean these notices will be easier to enforce as they make the registered keeper, rather than the driver, responsible.

Be interesting to see what happens - the private parking industry will have to pursue a few test cases as, really, their only relaible solution at the moment is to clamp offending vehicles.

 

[A210AMG]

Hello

Slight update as I went there to have a look myself.

Its an odd set up there is parking to the right of the store which we always thought was all for the train station. As it turns out one sign says train parking and one sign further round says staff parking (the staff parking actually being closer to the train station) and which is where my wife parked.


There are also signs up in both parking areas as below. In all honesty though if you knew this parking area I would think most of you would say the train station carpark is the parking on the right / not split up into two smaller carparks. As for signs, you never pay in Morrisons and neither at the station car park so again do we all read them? You find a bay and leave the car.


I then rang the store and they basically just said ring Euro Car parks. However searching the net this is the worse thing to do as it means at that point you are saying you are the driver etc of the car...


So I'm not sure, easy life pay £30 and take it.

or do I do what we did last time and ride the wave of letters (I've also a picture showing all these we will start to get, gradually getting stronger and more threatening..)

So the signs are up

(area wife parked)

Train parking area

The letters we will soon get if we ignore...
http://www.violetmount.com/scam.jpg


Our ticket

 

[st13phil]

I'd remove the pic of that ticket if I were you - or at least obscure every bit of info that links it to you or your wife!

 

[st13phil]

So I'm not sure, easy life pay £30 and take it.

or do I do what we did last time and ride the wave of letters (I've also a picture showing all these we will start to get, gradually getting stronger and more threatening..)

If you feel some sort of moral obligation to pay then do so, knowing full well that you are keeping the chancers going so that they can fleece some other less well informed victim(s).

 

[Rory]

So I'm not sure, easy life pay £30 and take it.

or do I do what we did last time and ride the wave of letters (I've also a picture showing all these we will start to get, gradually getting stronger and more threatening..)

With you having just been through exactly the same scenario, I'm a bit gobsmacked that you're even asking the question.

 

[A210AMG]

^ this set up 'looks' genuine signs up. 'traffic warden' ticket and euro car parks just seems more genuine that the last one we got which looked iffy from the start!

What I don't understand is how they can pay to put signs up. Pay for someone to monitor car park and issue tickets yet when you get one you shouldn't pay?

Do they just rely on say 10 out of 100 people paying?

 

[Kingy68]

Laws recently passed (to do with banning clamping) mean these notices will be easier to enforce as they make the registered keeper, rather than the driver, responsible.

Are you sure that it is now law that the registered keeper is responsible for private parking fines? That was requested by the parking companies but I was under the impression it is not law which is why the private companies are still sending letters to registered keepers and harrassing them with threatening letters and phone calls to try and discover the driver (rather than registered keeper) of the vehicle.
As I understand it the Parking Companies still have to know the driver of the car should they wish to take the matter to court. Are you sure that has now changed?

I then rang the store and they basically just said ring Euro Car parks. However searching the net this is the worse thing to do as it means at that point you are saying you are the driver etc of the car...
So I'm not sure, easy life pay £30 and take it.

Your call entirely mate.
You will have to endure the letter chain (and possible phonecall from the limited company masquerading as a solicitors) but that is a 'Parking Charge Notice' from a private parkling company ... Ie. An invoice for parking there based on the assumption that you accepted their terms and agreed to their 'parking contract'. At £30 it's not as bad as some, but is still hugely inflated for that area for a days parking so is unlikely to be considered as 'reasonable costs' by any court were it to get that far. (Very unlikely).

Do they just rely on say 10 out of 100 people paying?

Yes. But I bet the number is a fair bit higher than that.
Everything is laid out to look 100% legitimate and to imitate Police/ Council PCN's. Combined with letters that get more aggressive each time and an appeals system that is not designed to consider your case, just to extract information then it tends to work well by scaring people into paying if not straight away then under the later promise of solicitors/ debt collectors or court.

My friend went to the Peels Centre car park in Stockport. He bought a £1 pay and display ticket, put it in the car and went shopping. He came back to a parking invoice attached to his car and then got a letter with photo evidence. He appealed - sending a photocopy of his £1 pay and display ticket. The private company refused his appeal as the ticket was displayed in his vehicle upside down! They said this was contrary to the way they required pay and display tickets to be displayed in cars. He refused to pay so they sent a letter to him (as the driver which he had confirmed in his appeal) threatening a new invoice requesting a much increased amount of money and possible court etc, if he didn't pay straight away. He paid the £60 invoice or 'parking charge' (it's not a fine as they can't 'fine' you) before it went up. Sadly he only told me about this after the event.


Pepipoo and Moneysavingexpert (link in the 'Asda Car Parks' link I posted earlier) could offer further advice with full knowledge of current laws if you want it, but it's your call as to whether you want to go through the undoubted hassles of ignoring it or just get shut for £30.