HELP! - New Engine - 1979 Mercedes 409

[needshelpbadly]

Not gonna lie, I am slightly obsessed with Betsy and have spent far too much money on the old girl, including a very recent total body respray! i am now actually past the point of no return! All in all, she is in mint condition EXCEPT the engine which is apparently shot and means I can't drive the bloody thing

She is a petrol model made in 1979 and I am happy to invest a decent budget in getting her moving again. I have wasted tons of time with people who promised me 'the same engine" or " a new super-enhanced engine' and even some nutter who reckoned he could 'make her electric'!

My initial love would have been to somehow make her more powerful (she is fifty years old and actually never passed another vehicle!) but now I would settle for anything to get her going! We are based in Hampshire but can get her anywhere..

Oh, and by the way, I am actually USELESS when it comes to mechanics so can't do anything myself.

Any help would be so much appreciated.

Thanks guys

 

[ray_hennig]

Have you consulted an old-school MB garage? In Worthing, there is John Haynes. Horndean, PCS. Steve Redfearn in Wimbledon.

And there are doubtless others.

These are the ones of whom I have experience.

One of those should be able to advise. But prepare for significant cost as they will not propose a bodge job.

RayH

 

[Doodle]

This thread might help: Looking for M115 Engine and gearbox | Engine

The suggestion seemed to be to source an M102 engine as a more powerful alternative.

 

[toolman1954]

Hi,
Take a look at t his thread from some time ago. You will note from the thread that I had a 409 many moons ago.

Looking any info on a Mercedes 409 M 115 engine swap | Engine

Hello I have a 409 truck with a 2.3 litre petrol. It run's out of steam going uphill especially when towing and on a recent run to Brighton and back from Lincolnshire I spent £320 on fuel, so about 8mpg. I would like to swap the engine for something with more power and economy. Does...

forums.mbclub.co.uk

This was about another member seeking an engine for his 409. Also there are other threads on the same issue, just use the search facility at top right .
You will see that the member was after a w115.952
[ Yes from what I can find it should have the M115.952 variant, which is almost the same as the one in the 230 of the same era].
These engines are not so easy to find these days. Even on Ebay there is just one out of a 200 saloon.
The W115 as listed on your data plate is just a generic type of engine, and there are many variants, and mostly put in into petrol cars.
As noted in post 2 this is going to be a very expensive venture. To be honest, I would have sorted out the engine before spending lots of cash on the body work.
Just as a matter of interest what is wrong with your engine? Can it be rebuilt? It does not help that you are somewhat challenged with mechanical work. Perhaps time to get your hands dirty.

Regards Steve.

Seems Doodle beat me to it.

 

[Tuercas viejas]

Question ?
Why not consider an OM617 with turbo variant plucked out of a rusty 123 chassis?
Done that a few times in vans like that, 1970/80's era G series and many a 404 Unimog!
Where dwelt the original M108 pet-rol that loved visiting fuel stations and couldn't get out of anyone's way inviting a memorable Kenworth kiss up its **** !!!
Tuercas viejas.

 

[GillyC63]

Sorry I can't help but have to say that is gorgeous!

 

[SpikyMikey]

Sorry I can't help but have to say that is gorgeous!

Seconded; Betsy is a sweetie

 

[needshelpbadly]

Hi,
Take a look at t his thread from some time ago. You will note from the thread that I had a 409 many moons ago.

Looking any info on a Mercedes 409 M 115 engine swap | Engine

Hello I have a 409 truck with a 2.3 litre petrol. It run's out of steam going uphill especially when towing and on a recent run to Brighton and back from Lincolnshire I spent £320 on fuel, so about 8mpg. I would like to swap the engine for something with more power and economy. Does...

forums.mbclub.co.uk

This was about another member seeking an engine for his 409. Also there are other threads on the same issue, just use the search facility at top right .
You will see that the member was after a w115.952
[ Yes from what I can find it should have the M115.952 variant, which is almost the same as the one in the 230 of the same era].
These engines are not so easy to find these days. Even on Ebay there is just one out of a 200 saloon.
The W115 as listed on your data plate is just a generic type of engine, and there are many variants, and mostly put in into petrol cars.
As noted in post 2 this is going to be a very expensive venture. To be honest, I would have sorted out the engine before spending lots of cash on the body work.
Just as a matter of interest what is wrong with your engine? Can it be rebuilt? It does not help that you are somewhat challenged with mechanical work. Perhaps time to get your hands dirty.

Regards Steve.

Seems Doodle beat me to it.

Thanks, Steve, You're right about the engine, although to be honest, it was working once I started the work and then suddenly I was in too far! I doubt that I am the first and nor will I be the last to be blinded by one of these beauties. i am going to try and find out exactly what is the issue with the engine and also will call the experts that Ray very kindly recommended. There must be a way some how

 

[grober]

This thread might help: Looking for M115 Engine and gearbox | Engine

The suggestion seemed to be to source an M102 engine as a more powerful alternative.

M102.982​

Similar to the M102.980 version, but with the newer KE-Jetronic system from Bosch. Cubic capacity: 2,299 cc (2.3 L). Power output: 97 kW (132 PS; 130 bhp)

Applications:

• 1985-1992 W124 230E
• 1985-1992 W124 230CE
• 1985-1992 W124 230TE

50% MORE POWER? Only snag with these engines is the EZL ignition units so make sure the engine comes complete with all ancilliaries inc the fuel system pumps filters etc

Looking any info on a Mercedes 409 M 115 engine swap | Engine

Hello I have a 409 truck with a 2.3 litre petrol. It run's out of steam going uphill especially when towing and on a recent run to Brighton and back from Lincolnshire I spent £320 on fuel, so about 8mpg. I would like to swap the engine for something with more power and economy. Does...

forums.mbclub.co.uk

Mercedes-Benz TN - Wikipedia lists engines fitted

 

[jasons]

when I used to work in a Mercedes commercial dealership we used to source engines sometimes from crewe engines I don't know if they are still going or not but it might be worth a look

 

[carat 3.6]

The quickest thing to do is see what's wrong with the engine you have now, if it just needs a few minor things sorting out you'll be on the road in no time.

If it turns out the engine is past it, then that would be the ideal time for an upgrade. Your problem with that is not the engine, but the gearbox. The one you have is fairly weak, and limits you on what engines you can use. The m102 is a good suggestion but will not actually work with your gearbox.

You would need to make sure any different engine would actually fit in the space you have, but If you want to keep a petrol engine I would suggest the 2.3 M111 engine along with the gearbox from a early sprinter van. That would get you up to 150hp, and around 160lbft of torque (nearly double the power you have now) which will help you alot when climbing hills.

The main components will bolt together easily enough but you will need to find someone who knows how to wire up the engine electrics.

Hope thats helpful.

 

[needshelpbadly]

The quickest thing to do is see what's wrong with the engine you have now, if it just needs a few minor things sorting out you'll be on the road in no time.

If it turns out the engine is past it, then that would be the ideal time for an upgrade. Your problem with that is not the engine, but the gearbox. The one you have is fairly weak, and limits you on what engines you can use. The m102 is a good suggestion but will not actually work with your gearbox.

You would need to make sure any different engine would actually fit in the space you have, but If you want to keep a petrol engine I would suggest the 2.3 M111 engine along with the gearbox from a early sprinter van. That would get you up to 150hp, and around 160lbft of torque (nearly double the power you have now) which will help you alot when climbing hills.

The main components will bolt together easily enough but you will need to find someone who knows how to wire up the engine electrics.

Hope thats helpful.

Thanks for answering and for the advice. I have emailed the Mercedes mechanical experts mentioned above, so maybe they can help. I wonder if I should look at buying an early sprinter possibly. Do you know what years I should look out for, please? Any help much appreciated as I am really stuck at the moment and desperately want to get her moving!

 

[needshelpbadly]

Have you consulted an old-school MB garage? In Worthing, there is John Haynes. Horndean, PCS. Steve Redfearn in Wimbledon.

And there are doubtless others.

These are the ones of whom I have experience.

One of those should be able to advise. But prepare for significant cost as they will not propose a bodge job.

RayH

I have mailed the guys you mention. Many thanks Ray

 

[needshelpbadly]

when I used to work in a Mercedes commercial dealership we used to source engines sometimes from crewe engines I don't know if they are still going or not but it might be worth a look

I have called these guys but they repair only. Thanks though

 

[toolman1954]

Mercedes-Benz O309 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here is the Wiki with the O309 Chassis Vans.
In the petrol section you will see your van, an O309 (23B) / 409 ..115 /23, displacement 2307cc 66 Kw /4800 90 hp ( hence 409 )
Underneath that is the data for the 0309 (23B) / 410 which uses a M102 Engine.... as previously suggested, which produces 95 hp and which is a 410
These are not TN1 vans, they are the early Sprinter renditions, one of which I still have. I did also have a 508 which was a 5 ton van and had a 3758 cc Diesel engine.
So apart from the original 115/23 engine you / or someone might be able to squeeze in a 102. Just remember that any engine conversions come fraught with problems and expense. I hope some of the repairers can help, as it is a nice old van. I have fond memories of my 409 and did thousands of miles in it, somewhat overloaded. Fuel consumption was low 20's but a lot cheaper in the late 80's.

Steve...

Moving my market stall at Finmere Market late 80's, with the 409.

 

[carat 3.6]

Thanks for answering and for the advice. I have emailed the Mercedes mechanical experts mentioned above, so maybe they can help. I wonder if I should look at buying an early sprinter possibly. Do you know what years I should look out for, please? Any help much appreciated as I am really stuck at the moment and desperately want to get her moving!

You dont really need to buy a complete van unless you want to convert to diesel, and the petrol version of these vans are sought out for camper conversion so carry a high price. All you need from it is the gearbox, such as this one: LINK (note the position of the gear lever, which is the reason for using this gearbox).

The engine can come from a rotten E or C class.

What's wrong with the engine in it now?

 

[needshelpbadly]

So, a few of you helpful p[eople have asked me what is wrong with the original engine so here are a few pics. The bottom line is that I am not really sure!

Here's what I do know though - I bought the engine on eBay a couple of years ago and it was meant to be in mint condition. It certainly looked clean in the photos anyway!

So, I gave this to a reputable company that was originally started by a great old school mechanic and he was going to swap it out.. The issues began when the owner decided to slow down and handed over the reins to his not-so-skilled sons. After much hassling they got the engine in and working, although they did mention something about having to use a part or parts off the old engine. I eventually got the bus back and used it for a couple of short trips. It started ok, although did seem to misfire a bit and the timing seemed out but at least it worked!

For those still awake, this is where it gets complicated. About six months (probably 150 miles max later) after the engine refit we decided to run it down to a local chippy to do some cabinet work. It was a bitterly cold morning but no one checked the anti-freeze etc as we just assumed that this would be good from the recent engine refit. After a very short mile or so its started while steam a bit, so the driver pulled over and...... we are where we are now.

I took it to a second recommended mechanic who promised he could fit a new and much faster engine. He also said that the recent engine had been bodged and some kind of 'hole had been drilled into it" - possibly the 'breather' pipe in photo 5 above? -Anyway, turns out that he had her three months and did precisly sweet FA!

Million-dollar question is what do I do next. Could I get the engine referred up in Crewe maybe, or is it possibly too far gone?

I have also emailed a lovely begging letter to about ten merc specialists but have hardly any response.

Sorry for the long and boring post, but I did say that I was desperate!

thanks in advance - I am happy to send, beers, wine, money, my wife, if anyone can help in any way at all,

Cheers

 

[needshelpbadly]

You dont really need to buy a complete van unless you want to convert to diesel, and the petrol version of these vans are sought out for camper conversion so carry a high price. All you need from it is the gearbox, such as this one: LINK (note the position of the gear lever, which is the reason for using this gearbox).

The engine can come from a rotten E or C class.

What's wrong with the engine in it now?

Thanks, Carat, I have added some info below.

chat soon,

Wayne

 

[grober]

PICTURE 1 shows a petrol fuel pump on the engine block with no pipes attached -was it replaced by an electric pump?

PICTURE 5 shows the outlet pipe from the head for the heater

no self respecting mechanic is going to touch an very outdated engine with history/provenace like you have --- get an updated replacement engine as advised is the answer if you wish to get your beloved van running in the long term.

 

[needshelpbadly]

PICTURE 1 shows a petrol fuel pump on the engine block with no pipes attached -was it replaced by an electric pump?

PICTURE 5 shows the outlet pipe from the head for the heater

no self respecting mechanic is going to touch an very outdated engine with history/provenace like you have --- get an updated replacement engine as advised is the answer if you wish to get your beloved van running in the long term.

Thanks for the advice. I would dearly love to get an updated engine. I just don't have the ability to organise this myself and to be honest there are so many multiple ideas, opinions, and options that I am as confused as hell. I clearly need to find an expert that can take this project on and help me get it running.