New next MBClub plumbing problem.

[corned]

OK guys, my outside tap, on the outside wall of the kitchen from the sink and the incoming stopc0ck, has mysteriously stopped providing running water. this has never happened before in the 10 years we have lived here, even in freezing conditions.

I hasten to add that it's something like +10C outside at the moment, and has been all weekend, plus the house has the central heating on, so the pipes and the tap itself are not going to be frozen.

I have had the tap itself apart, and unscrewed it from the pipe (which would have resulted in me being blown backwards from the resultant mains pressure jet of water in usual circumstances). I have checked the valve immediately inside the wall (under the sink) and it is definitely open. I have tried it all ways round in any case, just to be sure. All the rest of the cold water taps and whatever are performing perfectly normally.

So where next to investigate? Preferably without having to dismantle the whole kitchen?

Any help gratefully received!

Bloody typical this; the reason I want the tap to work (as it has done forever until now) is to sluice down the car, which is looking very miserable in its winter filth. I was quite looking forward to seeing it nice and shiny for a change.

Another Corned perfectly simple DIY task foiled by some dastardly voodoo or magic - just to wind me up.

 

[stevieb15]

Other than the valve under the sink is there a little in line serviceman valve prior to the outside tap?

 

[corned]

Actually, there is something in the line between the stop valve and the bend out through the wall. It is a brass fitting with a protrusion on one side in the casting. Unfortunately I haven't got a torch and it's too dark to see what that might be for! I'll see if I can get some light under there...

 

[jonnyboy]

sounds like the valve inside the kitchen has failed, possibly dropping its washer into the pipe, blocking it.
Best thing is to kill the stopcock, then take the top of the valve out, then slowly turn the stopcock to "blow" the blockage out of the valve body.

 

[jonnyboy]

Actually, there is something in the line between the stop valve and the bend out through the wall. It is a brass fitting with a protrusion on one side in the casting. Unfortunately I haven't got a torch and it's too dark to see what that might be for! I'll see if I can get some light under there...

That'll probably be a double-check valve. Could have failed.

 

[BTB 500]

It could be a one way (non-return) valve, as these are a legal requirement for outside taps now I think.

If so it could have been damaged (jammed) by frost, although unlikely if it's inside I'd have thought.

 

[corned]

Right - a bit of investigation has revealed the following:

There is an inline service valve. This is working normally. Immediately next to it is another valve, much larger with a radiator-type square bleed valve on it. With the service valve open I can undo this bleed valve slightly and get water to come out. There are direction arrows in the casting on the sides of this fitting (incidentally they are pointing the right way!). I have undone the union on the outlet side of this fitting and opened the service valve. Nothing happens.

So I think that Bill is on the money with a failed/stuck non-return valve.

Any tips for trying to unstick it, preferably in situ?

 

[davidjpowell]

Hit it with a hammer?

 

[renault12ts]

Can you turn the inline valve off, allowing you to remove the non return valve, and replace it? I say this because I'm not sure you could fix it in situ.

 

[grober]

Buy a new one would be my advice. Because its a "statutory" device no sense in messing with it. They do get damaged by frost. Pegler Yorkshire If you can identify the make you may simply be able to substitute the new main valve body and reuse the existing couplings.

 

[corned]

The hitting it with a hammer thing yielded no results. Worth a go though!

The fitting itself is marked "ALSTA SAEFLO". Some googling reveals a company not far from me, long-gone unfortunately.

So I am either going to have to remove it and see if I can clean it up and refit, or find a suitable replacement which happens to be the same (to within a few mm) length. There is very little give in the pipes.

 

[StevenN]

Can you take a picture?

I should be able to provide a suitable replacement or alternative.

I have known similar things fail. Altecnic double check valves with built in isolators.
You could look on their website to see if what you have is similar

Regards

Steve

 

[donohoeIRL]

Common problem, the mechanism in them can be quite fragile and with the weather recently the plastic/brass innards can fracture or seize. Pegler should do a direct replacement, is there a S/N beginning with PN on it?

 

[corned]

Can you take a picture?

I should be able to provide a suitable replacement or alternative.

I have known similar things fail. Altecnic double check valves with built in isolators.
You could look on their website to see if what you have is similar

Regards

Steve

Good man! And you're in the right part of the world too. Thanks for the offer. I will try to get a piccie tomorrow.

Common problem, the mechanism in them can be quite fragile and with the weather recently the plastic/brass innards can fracture or seize. Pegler should do a direct replacement, is there a S/N beginning with PN on it?

I'll have a look - thanks!

The only problem I have is that I can't get the damn thing out. Once I have undone the unions on either side and it is fully loosened, there is not enough movement in the pipes on either side to allow the fitting to wriggle free. Access (to get a good purchase on it) is awkward to say the least. I can see me having to blowtorch the pipe elbows to remove the pipework back from the tap inside the house back to this fitting. Not the sort of job I will relish, but not impossible.

 

[corned]

The attached photo (rubbish I know - apologies) shows the two inline fittings concerned. The left-most is the service valve, and the larger one to the right is the blocked non-return valve just before the elbow out through the wall. Flow is from left to right.

 

[jonnyboy]

If you undo the wallplate fixings outside (the tap), would that give you enough wiggle room? Just a thought.

 

[StevenN]

I ain't see one like that in a while.
I will have a look to see if anybody still makes one that big but I think you will end up using a more common off the shelf fitting and making the difference up.
It was probably ice in the pipe during the cold snap that has finally forced the double check valve closed. It will probably free up but will stick again so best changed.
As other posts have said you should be able to work things loose.
You can get a tap with the check valve built in which would just need the fitting cutting out and pipe putting in. You would have to remember to drain the tap down if we get another cold snap.
I will come up with some options and cost in the morning. How are your plumbing skills?

Regards

Steve

 

[corned]

You're a gent. Thanks!

My plumbing skills are somewhat untested, but I'm a reasonably practical bloke and have done things of far greater magnitude. (Famous last words...)

I am not averse to getting hold of a blowtorch and some pipe, joints, etc and having a go if necessary. What could possibly go wrong?

Incidentally I Googled ALSTA and found an old reference to them in Ilkeston, near the old dry ski slope, but they have long gone by now. This house went up in 1995 and they were gone a year later as far as I can tell.

I have tried and tried to get the thing worked out of the pipes, but I can't get enough movement. This means there is little option but to disjoint the one elbow, which turns the pipe 90 degrees through the wall directly into the tap, and then I will have loads of room to pull the fitting out of the line.

I think I would prefer keeping the arrangements as it is - the check valve on the inside of the house and just the tap on the outside. Maybe I should also buy one of those tap cosies for next winter!

 

[StevenN]

I will price the bits up tomorrow and you can make your choice on how best to do the job.

I will price up a few options with soldering, compression and Speedfit.

The Ski slope at Cossall ain't far from home but I work at Long Eaton.

Where abouts are you?


Steve

 

[StevenN]

Please see below a list of things you may need.
The easiest way to keep things simple is to replace the valve with a new slimmer one and make the difference up in the pipework.
You could cut it out completely and fit a tap with it in?
Or even fit a tap without the DCV.
If you want to go down the soldering route then we can.
just let me know

regards

Steve

QUICK QUOTE H8505059
CASH SALES ACCOUNT
18Jan11
18Jan11
CASH

LONG EATON

steven 08:02
1 COMAP 15mm DOUBLE CHECK VALVE DZR 32901 £1.94ex vat

1 1/2" HU BIB TAP C/W CAP AND LINER 13901 £2.89+vat

1 COMAP 1/2 HU BIBTAP C/W DOUBLECHECK VALVE 13905 £4.19+vat

2 ENDFEED 15mm STRAIGHT COUPLING 59003 0.13ea +vat

2 SPEEDFIT STRAIGHT CONNECTOR 15mm PEM0415W 0.84+vat

1 COMAP STRATA 15MM SLIP REPAIR COUPLING 35830 2.00+vat

1 COMAP STRATA 15mm STRAIGHT COUPLING 35604 0.67+vat


Robert Pochin Ltd
Manor House Rd, Long Eaton