2015 LWB Sprinter with rumbling vibration from underside

[Celticbaz]

Hi folks,

Hopefully somebody might have encountered similar to this and if a resolution can be found it might help others facing the same symptoms too in the future. I have attempted a few things to resolve the problem without success so far.

My van, a 2015 LWB Sprinter (3.5T 313 CDI, RWD B906, 2143cc 95KW 129HP OM 651.940;OM 651.955.) firstly started to develop an audible squeak when rolling/moving back or forward at very low speed. A local garage here in Ayrshire diagnosed the universal joints as needing done after greasing failed to help. This work was carried out but after receiving the van back a new problem arose (a rumbling vibration when driving - only beginning once reaching approx 50mph and above). Steering wheel does not shake. The noise is very apparent when in the cab and drowns out the engine noise.

The same local garage that diagnosed the universal joints (who had then actually outsourced that work without me knowing) sent the van back to the company who did the universal joints (EURO driveshafts & hydraulics). They were adamant the fault was nothing to do with the work they carried out and went so far as to replace the entire prop shaft and balanced it. They then sent the van back but the fault was still there. The local garage and EURO driveshafts were stumped as to what the issue was and I was also £1200 out of pocket, without a van for a couple of weeks and no further forward for the pleasure.

I collected the van and decided to bite the bullet and take it to the so called experts (a Mercedes dealership nearest to me - Western Commercial in Glasgow). They had the van 2 hours and diagnosed two buckled back wheels and two new tyres as being the fault. I paid the labour of £226 pleased that I had some answers. I asked them for a quote and date to fix this - which I am still waiting for to this day. I eventually took the van to Kwik-Fit and bought two good tyres and wheels at a cost of £500 odd quid. Unfortunately after collection once I hit the motorway it was apparent that the problem was still present.

Back to square one I booked the van back into Western Commercial to have it re-investigated whilst the van was having recall work done. Their technicians spent another 1.5 hours on it, taking it to 3.5hrs total by this point and then informed that there was no labour charge as a gesture of goodwill, however they had not located the reason for the fault but in order to continue diagnosing, they would need to begin charging labour from that point onwards (meanwhile they were aware and acknowledged that their earlier diagnosis was wrong, my time had been wasted and had cost me approaching £800 at this point).

I politely declined the offer and collected the van from them as I would basically be paying more the longer it took them to diagnose the real fault i.e paying for their incompetency. Whilst I totally appreciate that no two vehicles are the same and this might be a really tricky/unique fault to diagnose, these are the experts who you are meant to trust.

I have no idea where to turn next, hence the post. If anybody could help, I would be eternally grateful and happy to repay them in some way.

I have a video where the fault can be heard, although road noise may interfere. Don't seem to be able to attach it here though.

Thanks in advance
Barry

 

[Bellow]

Is the prop shaft a single piece one or in two parts?

 

[Celticbaz]

Is the prop shaft a single piece one or in two parts?

It is two parts and has been completely replaced and balanced by a specialist.

 

[m80]

Elimination.
It seems the prop is eliminated.
I would expect the specialists to have eliminated the prop bearings also.

2 knackered rear wheels would sound unlikely. But tyre tread could easily do this. Assuming the symptoms are the same on different tyres, especially if new, then that seems eliminated.

I would start with a rear brake strip down. Being sure the parking brake shoes are secure, then that the calipers and pads are moving freely.

What's left is the half shafts, differential, or the gearbox- and torque convertor if auto or dual mass flywheel if not.
The dual mass fly wheels are an obvious thought, but surely MB would have considered this.

I've had a rumbling from an auto box, tbh it was an assumption as I sold that rather than recon the box. But that one caused the revs to surge.

 

[Celticbaz]

Elimination.
It seems the prop is eliminated.
I would expect the specialists to have eliminated the prop bearings also.

2 knackered rear wheels would sound unlikely. But tyre tread could easily do this. Assuming the symptoms are the same on different tyres, especially if new, then that seems eliminated.

I would start with a rear brake strip down. Being sure the parking brake shoes are secure, then that the calipers and pads are moving freely.

What's left is the half shafts, differential, or the gearbox- and torque convertor if auto or dual mass flywheel if not.
The dual mass fly wheels are an obvious thought, but surely MB would have considered this.

I've had a rumbling from an auto box, tbh it was an assumption as I sold that rather than recon the box. But that one caused the revs to surge.

Hi M80, thanks for the suggestions. You're right, it seems like this is going to be a process of elimination, I just hope not too expensive unless someone can identify the fault without hesitation by some means.

It's funny you should mention brake shoes etc as this all started when another garage (an MOT testing station here in Scotland) failed it due to the handbrake not holding (it was fine under normal road conditions before the MOT). The van also had that minor squeak (as mentioned) from underside (seemed like back wheels) at the time and they greased the Universal Joints, but it didn't help and they failed it for the hand brake. They fitted new hand brake shoes along with hold down kit, 2 pivots and adjusters so it could pass. The problem seemed to escalate quickly, if not immediately from there to the rumble/vibration. It's never been back to that garage as there were a few things which left me uneasy with the way it was dealt with and the van entering that MOT garage with one issue and left with a completely new one it seemed. I've mentioned all this to the other local garage who had it next for the Universal Joints/Prop shaft work as well as the Mercedes dealer so you'd think they might have checked this out. May be worth while backtracking and starting there?

It's a manual btw.

 

[m80]

When the vibes become noticeable try using the footbrake gently while still using the throttle to maintain speed, see if the vibes change.
A lot more risk is to do the same with the parking brake, but as it ratchets you could spin the van. Pulling the release as the pedal is gently applied would prevent that, but not for the faint hearted.

It could well be the dual mass fly wheel, the symptoms fit. How to eliminate w/o replacement I couldn't say.

Small point but I haven't seen original props with grease nipples on the UJ's, I've only seen this on aftermarket. After market 'may' not be as reliable as OEM.

 

[Celticbaz]

When the vibes become noticeable try using the footbrake gently while still using the throttle to maintain speed, see if the vibes change.
A lot more risk is to do the same with the parking brake, but as it ratchets you could spin the van. Pulling the release as the pedal is gently applied would prevent that, but not for the faint hearted.

It could well be the dual mass fly wheel, the symptoms fit. How to eliminate w/o replacement I couldn't say.

Small point but I haven't seen original props with grease nipples on the UJ's, I've only seen this on aftermarket. After market 'may' not be as reliable as OEM.

Ok thanks, I will try the pedal experiment and report back tomorrow.

The grease was only applied to old Universal Joints with regards to initial squeak at MOT stage and it did not make any difference to eliminate the squeak - which seemed to be coming from the rear wheels at the time - not the vibration/rumbling fault present now if that makes sense. Since then the van has had new prop-shaft from a specialist prop shaft builder (Euro Driveshafts & Hydraulics).

 

[m80]

It could well be the dual mass fly wheel, the symptoms fit. How to eliminate w/o replacement I couldn't say.

I'm being dumb, not driving a manual these days.

Up the vibe speed, press the clutch, let the engine return to idle and that would eliminate the flywheel.
Then into neutral, clutch out, and most of the gearbox is eliminated.
If the vibes continue that is.

 

[Bellow]

It is two parts and has been completely replaced and balanced by a specialist.

My first thoughts were as per this video >> universal joint orientation - Google Search

It is unlikely a driveshaft specialist would be unaware of this but....
I'd go underneath the van and check as per the video (just in case). Just an eyeball check as if it is mis-phased it won't be by 3 degrees but by an amount visible to the eye. Note carefully that they aren't 90 degrees out of phase.

M80's check for dual mass flywheel will take seconds. If nothing shows in those two checks I'd wonder if the discs (presumably) at the rear were properly mounted/seated after the handbrake work. The only other thing I can think of is if the diff pinion bearing has failed (possibly damaged during propshaft fitting - shouldn't have but it wouldn't be the first time a jack had been poorly placed or slipped). If it is that, then there will be roughness detectable by hand on rotating the propshaft by hand with the rear wheels clear of the ground - and debris in the oil. If it is at all suspect don't neglect. Complete failure can lock the diff and rear wheels and spit you off the road without warning.

 

[Celticbaz]

A short update:

The van was back in the local garage as someone suggested it would be best to go back to where "the hand was last" before the issue arose. So, they checked the work that was done by the previous garage for it to pass the MOT (break shoes, pivots, adjusters etc). Everything checked out just fine so at least that removes that possibility. The local garage mentioned in passing today that there was too much play in the dual mass flywheel and think this is where the problem lies. They want a few hundred quid to disassemble the gearbox to check.

I also wrote a letter of complaint to the Mercedes dealer and they have offered to investigate the problem further free of charge until they find the fault due to the farce I encountered with them. I am waiting for a date for the van to go in and be looked at by one of their technical specialists. Hopeful I may have some definitive answers soon. Will update what happens.

 

[Celticbaz]

The Sprinter was taken back to the Mercedes dealership last week (a different branch this time some distance away) for their most senior technician to inspect it and try to diagnose the issue. Injectors were checked first as this seemingly can be a cause of the vibration/rumble. They were deemed to be fine so the dual mass flywheel was next to be examined and they concluded that this needs replaced (excessive play in it - which I knew) and is the likely cause of the issue, albeit this diagnosis comes with a caveat of being "just a calculated guess until the work proves this to be the case".

The estimate for the works is as follows:

Job Description - Operation No. 2
Replace flywheel and clutch 597.00 S

Part Number Description QTY List Value *
A0002545208 CLUTCH RELEASE BEARING 250.00 S
A0049905912 SCREW 10.80 S
A0232500201 80 COUPLING 322.00 S
A6510305105 DUAL-MASS FLYWH 581.00 S
A9062640057 LOCKING CAP 3.95 S
N000000005805 HEXALOBULAR BOL 8.10 S

Job Description - Operation No. 3 Operation Value *
Additional time to remove stripped and seized 99.50 S
bolts

Sub Total 2,111.35
Tax Total 422.27
Estimate Total 2,533.62

A pretty hefty amount to have to pay with no guarantee of it fixing the problem. At this stage I am already over £2000 out of pocket on wheels, tyres, prop-shaft and labour. Further opinions on this would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[m80]

Get an Indie to do.
It will be cheaper.
It's got to be the next step.