Engine mount question

[tooheavy]

Hello, I've just bought a 2002 E220 cdi automatic estate. Only 56k, one owner fsh. The history shows that the rear springs were replaced and a remanufactured torque converter fitted, and since it has a towbar I'm guessing some previous use towing a caravan.

Although I drove it 250 miles home from London without incident and with excellent economy (57.8mpg), It has a few issues which I'm investigating. The first is a suspected engine mount, as there is a heavy vibration on idle especially when in drive or reverse. Could anyone tell me if this is an easy job, whether the mounts are handed, and how long a decent mechanic should take to replace one?

 

[Trickythemerc]

The engine mounts are handed, not too bad to change although one is a bit more involved than the other. They are best changed in pairs as they are oil filled and do sink a touch with age. I would guess a couple of hours to change both sides.

 

[ChrisHampshire]

You should really do the gearbox mount at the same time

 

[grober]

Immediate suspect would be the "remanufactured" torque converter but could be anything drive train related -- flexible couplings propshaft centre bearing /mount. Open the bonnet and get an assistant to "blip" the throttle while you look for excessive engine movement to check for worn mounts.

 

[gianton]

I would change the transmission mount first and see if it’s fixed.

 

[tooheavy]

Thanks everyone, some good information to help me investigate the problem.

 

[tooheavy]

Immediate suspect would be the "remanufactured" torque converter but could be anything drive train related -- flexible couplings propshaft centre bearing /mount. Open the bonnet and get an assistant to "blip" the throttle while you look for excessive engine movement to check for worn mounts.

Grober, could you elaborate on your post? Is remanufactured different to reconditioned, and do you think I should be worried that the car has had a duff unit installed?

 

[grober]

They are different but only in the degree/extent they have been "reworked" Unfortunately the terms tend to be interchangeable when rebuilders describe their products. With re-manufactured I would, for example expect a fully invoiced paper trail from a bona fide engineering company producing a product with a warranty as a visible expression of their faith in their product.
Jim -- Down the arches wot rebuilds tranny's may be an ace mechanic/rebuilder but his product may not have that engineering pedigree that warrants the term "remanufactured". So is there a paper trail detailing manufacturer date and warranty for the TC - even if its expired?
ps
Its only one possibility of many- its conceivable that when the gearbox was removed to replace the TC it was not properly re-installed /aligned or there's a problem with the rear gearbox mount/cross member. Its just based on the principle that when faced with a problem its always wise to ask if anything has been changed from factory standard. Just as when faced with a variety of possible causes of a problem without firm evidence you try the cheapest/easiest solutions first

 

[tooheavy]

They are different but only in the degree/extent they have been "reworked" Unfortunately the terms tend to be interchangeable when rebuilders describe their products. With re-manufactured I would, for example expect a fully invoiced paper trail from a bona fide engineering company producing a product with a warranty as a visible expression of their faith in their product.
Jim -- Down the arches wot rebuilds tranny's may be an ace mechanic/rebuilder but his product may not have that engineering pedigree that warrants the term "remanufactured". So is there a paper trail detailing manufacturer date and warranty for the TC - even if its expired?
ps
Its only one possibility of many- its conceivable that when the gearbox was removed to replace the TC it was not properly re-installed /aligned or there's a problem with the rear gearbox mount/cross member. Its just based on the principle that when faced with a problem its always wise to ask if anything has been changed from factory standard. Just as when faced with a variety of possible causes of a problem without firm evidence you try the cheapest/easiest solutions first

Graeme, I don't have the kind of paperwork you refer to. What I know is that the car is essentially one owner, bought new in Wigan and serviced/maintained regularly, sometimes at main dealers sometimes at SGN Autos, a Mercedes/VAG specialist. The TC was replaced by them at 49k in 2015, and the owner ran the car for a further two and a half years and about six thousand miles. The new TC cost just short of £500, and they charged 7.5 hours labour at £50 an hour. Total bill about £1100. That's really all I can tell from the paperwork. However the gearbox does not seem to function as it should. To start with the kickdown doesn't work. The changes seem a bit slow, as in they take a tiny bit too long to actually make the change, there seems hardly any difference between 4th and 5th, and when I take my foot off the throttle to decelerate, the revs seem to drop too low. That's the collection of things I've noticed in direct comparison with the car which we are about to sell or scrap, which is a 2001 E200 Kompressor estate auto. Which leads me down another train of thought...would it be the same box? Worth swapping? Thanks, Nigel.

 

[grober]

When you mentioned the age of the car 2002 and the fact the torque convertor had been replaced I thought of the Valeo RADIATOR ISSUE where coolant mixes with the autotransmission fluid- this can lead to damage to the torque converter/autobox. Its possible such a radiator issue might have damaged the TC in 2015 and it was replaced - however the damage may have been more extensive and shortened the life of the gearbox also altho it wasn't replaced at the time.
Valeo Radiator Torque Convertor Issue - My Experience

 

[tooheavy]

When you mentioned the age of the car 2002 and the fact the torque convertor had been replaced I thought of the Valeo RADIATOR ISSUE where coolant mixes with the autotransmission fluid- this can lead to damage to the torque converter/autobox. Its possible such a radiator issue might have damaged the TC in 2015 and it was replaced - however the damage may have been more extensive and shortened the life of the gearbox also altho it wasn't replaced at the time.
Valeo Radiator Torque Convertor Issue - My Experience

Just checked the car, the radiator is a Behr. There is no mention of the radiator being changed in any of the paperwork, but I realise that's not a guarantee that it hasn't been changed. How can I find out whether my car originally had a Valeo radiator? I have also done some reading on several threads regarding the Valeo issue, and the symptoms seem different to mine. The only noticeable vibration is at very low revs or idle. No vibration, knocks, odd noises or jerkiness at any speed/revs except very slow/low. Also do you think I should start a new thread on the gearbox problem? Thanks.

 

[Bellow]

Back to basics.
Does it vibrate in neutral? Can vibration be provoked in neutral by blipping throttle? If not, then disregard mounts for now.
Does it vibrate in gear (D or R) with car stationary? If so, nothing amiss aft of the gearbox output as nothing is turning. (Further, anything amiss there would likely be felt during driving).
Which leaves an engine management problem (something causing it to run rough) or TC lock up clutch engaging when it shouldn't which, AFAIK can be control related (solenoid, control pressure issues,etc) or internal to the TC (leaks in actuator).

The above are but probabilities but pursuing them as presented is the route I'd take to zero in on the root cause. I'm guessing the control aspects of the TC lock up clutch can be interrogated via STAR. If not, an auto trans specialist should be able to via pressure gauges temporarily plumbed in.

 

[grober]

I dont believe there is any way to check what make of radiator the car was originally fitted with from factory. It's merely a suggestion as to why the TC might have been replaced because the car falls into the right age group. I would be inclined to take the car to an autotransmission specialist rather than a German car generalist like SGN if you feel that's the cause of the problem. If not then start with the easiest solutions like engine and gearbox mounts

 

[tooheavy]

Thanks both.

OK so when you start the car from hot or cold, it starts no problem but the vibration is immediately apparent. A little bit of revs reduces it considerably, to the point where it is noticeable but only if you're looking for it. Back to tickover, putting the car into gear (D or R) increases the vibration noticeably.

I had to use the car today, total journey about 50 miles, and I was watching/listening very carefully throughout. I felt better about the gearbox operation when I got home than I did previously. The changes are slightly different than our old car, mostly it was 4th/5th happening a bit later but overall I think it's ok.

In general driving the vibration is slightly noticeable most of the time, but when slowing right down the car seems to drop revs to tickover speeds and then the vibration is bad, similar to putting it in gear while parked.

The good news is that in contrast to my earlier post, the kickdown does work. I overtook a bus and it changed down from 5th to 3rd, then back up again as soon as I eased off. When I tried it a few days ago I was pressing the pedal down slowly, maybe that is less likely to trigger kickdown?

I live in west Wales, can't afford dealer prices, there is an independent in Swansea (60 mile round trip) but I haven't used them before, so a Star diagnostic is a bit tricky. I think I'll start by getting the mounts looked at, and if necessary replaced, and go from there. Will update when I know more.

Thanks again.

ps Unbelievably and very weirdly our old car which has been so great for the last six years and approx 60 thousand miles has today gone into gearbox limp mode, can only travel at about 35 - 40 mph, and has an unpleasant clunk when selecting D or R. It seems to be upset that it's being replaced...

 

[Major774]

If you feel vibrations from a hot or cold start then just get the mounts changed.

The easiest way to change these mounts is to remove the exhaust for access. I have changed the mounts on my car (my self), no more vibrations for me.

 

[alabbasi]

I did it on my W210 E55 a couple of times (two different cars), same body, much bigger engine. Not too bad a job when using a lift. I think that it took about 1.5 hours.