Vaino V6 CDI Loss of Power.

[m80]

Not wanting to hijack a previous thread,
P0101 MAF and P2463 DPF soot problems... | MBClub UK - Bringing together Mercedes Enthusiasts
I've started this one.

"Mine feels like limp but revs to max and kicks down so not. I believe there is no turbo boost

With mine bringing up the MAF code before starting the engine I'm able to see that, to my mind anyway, it's a sensor or ECU fault.

I have been using the iCarsoft V2 till it also went faulty yesterday. That has shown me that the map boost sensor didn't change state while driving so I've ordered one.
It can show DPF differential pressure, exhaust back pressure and soot content.

I replaced my MAF last week and no difference
I believe cheaper non oem MAFs are suspect and can be problematic themselves, I went for Bosch."

Answer by HITECH
"Revs up to full but power loss. Yes that will be your exhaust back pressure sensor for sure. How sure am I . Well the components that cause that specific fault are very limited and the most common one is the exhaust back pressure sensor. Top right of your engine beside the EGR. I already am advising somebody else on the forum for a limp mode of similar nature. You gone about it the right way, DPF sensor then ...... Replacing your exhaust back pressure sensor and cleaning out your EGR and all the routes/lines full of soot should cure it."

 

[m80]

Thanks HITECH,
I'll take a closer look tomorrow but are your describing the location of the sensor for the 220 engine?
My EGR is front and centre. It is moving freely, mucky but this was replaced 2 months ago when it went u/s, and is showing changes as I drive.
I am unsure that the oxygen sensor performing well.

 

[HITECH]

Ide forget about the oxygen sensor for now. It will probably have an O2 sensor code coming up which is most likely a false code. Check out here.....
Turbo issue - w203 cdi

ignore the comment about the intake hose. that was me just sharing with the guy how much i got mine for. post a picture of your engine in here aswell if u want and can shed more light on stuff visually for you.

Thanks HITECH,
I'll take a closer look tomorrow but are your describing the location of the sensor for the 220 engine?
My EGR is front and centre. It is moving freely, mucky but this was replaced 2 months ago when it went u/s, and is showing changes as I drive.
I am unsure that the oxygen sensor performing well.

 

[m80]

The sensor I've ordered is sited post throttle valve and close to it on the riser, it is pre EGR but not on the line feeding it.
On iCarsoft it's described as 'Charge pressure sensor' and stayed at 800Hpa no matter what state of revs or load.
As fitted it's A006 153 1528,
the replacement will be A006 153 999 28.

I'll go out shortly to find the sensor you linked on the other thread, cuppa tea or 2 first and let the effects of Guinness subside a bit.

 

[m80]

1st image is looking in at the EGR,
2nd image is the charge pressure sensor on order.

Help to show me the wherabouts of the back pressure sensor and the DPF dp sensor would be appreciated.

 

[m80]

My iCarsoft corrupted its programme. At their suggestion I updated it and now there is no facility to monitor the engine 'Live Data', it's gone from the options. I wait for their engineers to suggest another remedy. I can't say I'm impressed.

Anyway I never did find the exhaust back pressure sensor but when iCarsoft was monitoring I did record it doing as 'I' believe to be ok.
ignition on engine not running 977 hpa, tickover 1013 hpa, revving 1400 hpa(approx).

Being at a loss and not being able to diagnose with iCarsoft anyway I've booked it in with Mansfield MB, but that's not till the 18th.

I replaced the MAP pressure sensor, no difference.
I bought a new oxygen sensor, the old one doesn't want to budge but with the new one plugged in instead, still no difference.

It's a nice day we're off sailing.

 

[BTB 500]

I have a 2007 Vito 120 with the same engine (and DPF) - when the differential pressure sensor went on that (at just 64k miles) I got the EML light on and limp mode. The EML light went off when next started, but it stayed in limp mode (low power). Had it fixed by a dealer (car, not commercial); they did a failed glowplug at the same time and the total with diagnostics etc. was around £400.

I take it straight to MB now for anything like this - a good local garage had it for 2 weeks trying to fix an EGR problem a couple of months ago and gave up in the end. Their diagnostic software couldn't erase some of the fault codes, even after fitting a new EGR. Dealer fixed it same day.

I'm actually losing the will to live with ours - since the EGR it's been in limp mode again twice (loose electrical plug, MAS error). Now it's off the road again looking like it will need the turbo and exhaust manifolds replaced (to be confirmed on Monday - this is a known problem with the OM642). It's only on 93k miles, with full MBSH from new. It had the crank position sensor fail too, at just over 60k miles. That was an actual breakdown - the engine stopped and wouldn't fire at all. Also a known problem with the OM642 - there was a recall for it on all models, apart from the W639

 

[HITECH]

Im getting a bit confused with these posts now. Is this sorted? PM me your VIN and I can shed more light on components and locations.

1st image is looking in at the EGR,
2nd image is the charge pressure sensor on order.

Help to show me the wherabouts of the back pressure sensor and the DPF dp sensor would be appreciated.

 

[m80]

No, it's Still having a rest from regular use, apart from a 100 mile drive to MB Mansfield yesterday.

I've located the DP sensor, although that isn't suspect.
I recovered the use of the iCarsoft due to GLK David sending me a copy of his iCarsoft software, a big thanks to David, absolutely no thanks due to UK Parts Direct (the supplier) who still haven't offered a resolution to what became a brick.

The exhaust back pressure can be seen on iCarsoft doing its stuff, and yesterday on Xsentry due to your / my suggestion it was interrogated and got a clean bill of health.

The 2 sensors not reporting as might be expected are the oxygen sensor and the Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (MAP).

Remembering that this fault comes up ignition on and pre engine start any replacement of faulty component should allow for fault code reset, not happened so far.
Unable to shift the old oxygen sensor I've plugged in the new and no difference.
The wiring has had continuity back to ECU proven, although yesterday I was given pin outs so could now test for an expected voltage at the plug.

The MAP has been replaced, the wiring back to ECU proven and voltage at the MAP plug proven.
The MAP reads 97 Kpa when plugged and 37 Kpa unplugged, so the ECU is seeing it.
Running it records 800 Kpa constant, no matter what revs or power, hence my thinking it was shot, not so.

I have proven continuity of the oxygen sensor wiring back to the ECU, but didn't check for any possible insulation breakdown or the expected voltage at the sensor plug. I could of course do that but feel it is likely to confirm that to be eliminated.

My thinking now is that the new MAF is possibly faulty, but unlikly.
It bench tests pretty much the same as the old,
and although it does perform on a running test and readings go up and down, Xsentry and other tools say it's out of performance spec.

Next choice is faulty ECU, there are 2 faults no oxygen sensor variation and constant MAP 800 Kpa, the ECU is the common point.
My problem here is not knowing what is cause and what might be effect.

Anyway the ECU is booked for testing, now I've just to post it off, and wait with fingers crossed.

VIN: WDF 639 815 234 44 730,
If I actually get to beat this thing, with other than John Cleese style foliage, it's always good to know where stuff is. With my luck I might need the knowledge.

Anyway anyone actually reading all that deserves a cuppa, that's my next action.

 

[HITECH]

Im still pondering over this. Its a very interesting ANNOYING fault all right. What make was the new MAF outa curiosity ? Its gotta be O2 sensors. 1 fault leading you up the garden path with scans for sure. Onto false DTCs. What a pain ! Im staying tuned on this one bud....

No, it's Still having a rest from regular use, apart from a 100 mile drive to MB Mansfield yesterday.

I've located the DP sensor, although that isn't suspect.
I recovered the use of the iCarsoft due to GLK David sending me a copy of his iCarsoft software, a big thanks to David, absolutely no thanks due to UK Parts Direct (the supplier) who still haven't offered a resolution to what became a brick.

The exhaust back pressure can be seen on iCarsoft doing its stuff, and yesterday on Xsentry due to your / my suggestion it was interrogated and got a clean bill of health.

The 2 sensors not reporting as might be expected are the oxygen sensor and the Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (MAP).

Remembering that this fault comes up ignition on and pre engine start any replacement of faulty component should allow for fault code reset, not happened so far.
Unable to shift the old oxygen sensor I've plugged in the new and no difference.
The wiring has had continuity back to ECU proven, although yesterday I was given pin outs so could now test for an expected voltage at the plug.

The MAP has been replaced, the wiring back to ECU proven and voltage at the MAP plug proven.
The MAP reads 97 Kpa when plugged and 37 Kpa unplugged, so the ECU is seeing it.
Running it records 800 Kpa constant, no matter what revs or power, hence my thinking it was shot, not so.

I have proven continuity of the oxygen sensor wiring back to the ECU, but didn't check for any possible insulation breakdown or the expected voltage at the sensor plug. I could of course do that but feel it is likely to confirm that to be eliminated.

My thinking now is that the new MAF is possibly faulty, but unlikly.
It bench tests pretty much the same as the old,
and although it does perform on a running test and readings go up and down, Xsentry and other tools say it's out of performance spec.

Next choice is faulty ECU, there are 2 faults no oxygen sensor variation and constant MAP 800 Kpa, the ECU is the common point.
My problem here is not knowing what is cause and what might be effect.

Anyway the ECU is booked for testing, now I've just to post it off, and wait with fingers crossed.

VIN: WDF 639 815 234 44 730,
If I actually get to beat this thing, with other than John Cleese style foliage, it's always good to know where stuff is. With my luck I might need the knowledge.

Anyway anyone actually reading all that deserves a cuppa, that's my next action.

 

[zenman63]

Change the turbo oil seal and fit a new dpf pressure sensor next to the exhaust.
Both stock at the dealers and that says there very common, it will give all the faults you have leaking air and limp home mode on and off etc

 

[HITECH]

u on about the orange oil seal on the turbo or the actual gasket seal ?

Change the turbo oil seal and fit a new dpf pressure sensor next to the exhaust.
Both stock at the dealers and that says there very common, it will give all the faults you have leaking air and limp home mode on and off etc

 

[zenman63]

Yes that’s the one, have you done it?


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[m80]

To call me a liar I've just plugged in iCarsoft as I recognised that earlier I've been talking Hpa and recent Kpa.
Kpa is what it's reading in today.

Anyway 'today' the MAP is at 97 Kpa and fluctuating a little when revved.
The MAF is now constant no matter what engine state.

Methinks this makes the ECU more suspect, time to remove and post off.

I thought I had posted that little update yesterday, too busy rushing to press the button I guess.
Anyway the ECU is now with DHL so I'm unable to test anything until it's returned.

Zenman thanks for the points.
Changing the turbo spigot seal is always a good idea just to hopefully prevent leaking and destruction of the motor below, been there with a C320. This has the upgraded air filter with improved sealing but still possible.
If that was leaking though it would only alarm with engine running.

I don't recall the reading of the differential pressure sensor but for some reason I called it as ok. Of course as I haven't monitored the engine sensors when things were running well I don't know what is ideal so as to recognise out of spec readings anyway. One to be considered when the ECU returns if they don't find issue.

BTW, the new MAF is a Bosch, as was the old.
If / when the Viano is running well again my intention 'after' proving good for some miles is to swap back the old components and reprove them. That way I'll have spares and can eliminate / prove faults in the future.
For eg a known good MAF from a running V6 'V' could have totally removed my MAF(s) from this equation.

 

[BTB 500]

Just as an aside ... the diagnosis on mine was delamination of the exhaust manifold liner, sending metal debris into the turbo. As mentioned this is one of the 'known issues' on the OM642 ... from a quick Google I found examples in the ML and CLS, sometimes on very low mileage (under 30k). Replacement of the manifolds is an engine-out job on the W639 (lack of space in the engine bay).

 

[zenman63]

Where have you sent the ecu?
Cannot see it being that.



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[HITECH]

Ive done a lot of the orange seals on merc turbos. More often than not though the similar faults the op is trying to work out here have been down to the DPFE or the exhaust manifold BACK pressure sensor. OR BOTH. I think a lot of people including in this forum get confused with these sensors. They are different from the o2 sensors. different from the map sensors, diffirent from the air intake sensors. People repeatedly tend to get confused and mixed up when talking about them. Thats my rant over !

Yes that’s the one, have you done it?


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[HITECH]

I cant see it being the ECU either. It is something that some indie garages do when they have no idea what the fault is or where else to investigate. It sounds to me like there would be more things to check before sending away the ECU. NOT replacing the DPF sensor on the car with a fault like this 1st is a schoolboy error to me. But hey you never know. the outcome of this will be interesting. Im guessing ECU company will say yeah was a fault and its fixed now. You fit ur ECU back and u still got the same fault. HOPEFULLY NOT. Im a realist not an optimist

Where have you sent the ecu?
Cannot see it being that.



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[m80]

As and when a fault is correctly diagnosed the cause and effect become easier to understand, often. Having fault found on industrial machinery it goes from scratching heads to "of course".
Back then I would do as I could to eliminate the things I could test as what goes on in magic boxes, like the ECU, is beyond me. Eliminate what is possible to and whats left is where the fault should be.
The value of these forums can be demonstrated by experience of others pointing the way. So all contributions are greatfully received.

The iCarsoft is seeing a fault, not aiding the diagnosis too well, but this being a constant fault and with engine off 'should' make things easier.

To my mind if a sensor is demonstrating it has changing values that are reasonable values, as I'm seeing this as an output from the ECU, it should be safely eliminated.
That has included the exhaust back pressure sensor for example.
The MAP is being seen by the ECU, the ECU output was constant at 800 Kpa, until yesterday. The fluctuations were small but I don't know what I should expect. The fault still remains regardless.
The old and new MAF are being blamed by the iCarsoft, but this could be effect and not cause??

A shot differential pressure sensor would cause issue, but shouldn't I expect it to show it's own code?

The ECU by now should be with 'ECU Testing' in Heanor, Derbyshire, as recommended by the Indie.
They haven't had this exact type of ECU but very similar. If testing not possible I pay for postage,
testing is £45 +vat, to be knocked of any repair cost at between £195 - £250 (+ vat).
If it gets repaired but doesn't resolve the issue there is clearly cause for claim.
Since this thing has been 'resting' since the 18th June and so far what has become trial and error hasn't worked it seems worth the attempt.

To add a couple more tit bits.
This occured right after I had removed the front bumper to sort a misting head light. I then assumed, not thinking to well, that I had disturbed the intercooler joints. All rads removed ( I also wanted to check the condensor as the AC hasn't yet worked). I filled condensor and intercooler with water, left o'night and both held the water so both good.
Rebuilt with care to any air route joints and still faulty. Although I couldn't think that I might have affected anything while removing bumper I went in again some time later to investigate and couldn't see anything that might have caused this.

While being intrusive and removing engine components I noticed the pre tubo heater was out of its push in reciever, ya know the one next to that orange spigot seal mentioned earlier. It must have been like that for at least 6k miles and surprisingly didn't bring up a MAF fault itself. Thinking I had discovered the fault back in it went but no difference, still faulty. But of course this is a pre engine running fault anyway.

Any more thoughts appreciated and any one who can say "numpty it's obviously ----" I won't feel insulted.

 

[wu56Shoozz]

I'm curious... how did you dry the moisture out of the condenser and intercooler ??