We are being watched!

[Alfie]

It would appear that we are being watched on levels unlike any other in the world!

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/02112006/140/britons-most-spied-world.html

 

[garystu1965]

Good. If it cuts crime I'm all for it. I've nothing to fear as I'm a law abiding citizen. I suppose all the CCTVs will be taken down because it infringes human rights (to criminals).

 

[wallingd]

Ditto Culpano. Might help stop all the dumbos these days as well.

 

[Spinal]

Thats exactly the problem. People seem to have this false impression that CCTV will "stop" criminals. It doesn't. All it does is act as a deterrent to some of the newer/smaller criminals. 'Real' criminals wont care. Not only, anyone with a simple hoodie is able to elude CCTV.

This might sound strange coming from someone who is currently installing CCTV. Why am I doing it? Because it provides a (false) sense of security to my family members, who prefer to thing of the CCTV camera as a magic barrier to criminality.

In fact, I am of the opinion that oversurveilance (however thats spelt) can and will lead to increased high-level criminality. All of a sudden, high resolution CCTVs will point everywhere. Your pin code? A secret of the past. The way you pay your bills? Known to whoever feels like watching... Your great birthday party? More like a great way to get your DoB...

Don't get me wrong, I am totally for crime-control measures... that said, I don't feel that flooding the country with cameras will do the trick.

Another point is... who controls the cameras? Following that, who controls (or even checks) the people who control the cameras? How secure is the system? You probably wouldn't feel safe giving out your personal details to the person sitting at the gate of your parking lot (who I remind you, spends most of his time staring at CCTV footage), so why do you feel safe giving your information out to the millions of individuals and companies who employ them that are tracking your every move?

Michele

p.s. and "but it will never happen to me" and "as long as I don't do anything wrong, they wont film me" are just delusions. The problem isn't stopping criminals, thats a solution that hasn't been found. The problem is stopping criminals from exploiting the system.

[/endrant]

 

[Ashley]

Good. If it cuts crime I'm all for it. I've nothing to fear as I'm a law abiding citizen. I suppose all the CCTVs will be taken down because it infringes human rights (to criminals).

I'm with you, if it only stops one kid being kidnapped and killed it is worth the price.

 

[Swiss Toni]

Thats exactly the problem. People seem to have this false impression that CCTV will "stop" criminals. It doesn't. All it does is act as a deterrent to some of the newer/smaller criminals. 'Real' criminals wont care. Not only, anyone with a simple hoodie is able to elude CCTV.

This might sound strange coming from someone who is currently installing CCTV. Why am I doing it? Because it provides a (false) sense of security to my family members, who prefer to thing of the CCTV camera as a magic barrier to criminality.

In fact, I am of the opinion that oversurveilance (however thats spelt) can and will lead to increased high-level criminality. All of a sudden, high resolution CCTVs will point everywhere. Your pin code? A secret of the past. The way you pay your bills? Known to whoever feels like watching... Your great birthday party? More like a great way to get your DoB...

Don't get me wrong, I am totally for crime-control measures... that said, I don't feel that flooding the country with cameras will do the trick.

Another point is... who controls the cameras? Following that, who controls (or even checks) the people who control the cameras? How secure is the system? You probably wouldn't feel safe giving out your personal details to the person sitting at the gate of your parking lot (who I remind you, spends most of his time staring at CCTV footage), so why do you feel safe giving your information out to the millions of individuals and companies who employ them that are tracking your every move?

Michele

p.s. and "but it will never happen to me" and "as long as I don't do anything wrong, they wont film me" are just delusions. The problem isn't stopping criminals, thats a solution that hasn't been found. The problem is stopping criminals from exploiting the system.

[/endrant]

I don't agree with the connection you make, but with some of the lowest levels of CCTV and the highest levels of Organised Crime, Italy is an interesting contrast...

 

[Shude]

I'm with you, if it only stops one kid being kidnapped and killed it is worth the price.

You seem to have missed the point of CCTV. What happens is the kid is kidnapped, killed and then days/weeks later the CCTV is reviewed to see if it can be worked out who did it. Entirely retrospective.

 

[jaymanek]

You seem to have missed the point of CCTV. What happens is the kid is kidnapped, killed and then days/weeks later the CCTV is reviewed to see if it can be worked out who did it. Entirely retrospective.

yes but its effective in making criminals think twice... i know for sure i always think twice before parking on a double yellow these days!

 

[jaymanek]

You seem to have missed the point of CCTV. What happens is the kid is kidnapped, killed and then days/weeks later the CCTV is reviewed to see if it can be worked out who did it. Entirely retrospective.

yes but its effective in making criminals think twice... i know for sure i always think twice before parking on a double yellow these days!

 

[Swiss Toni]

You seem to have missed the point of CCTV. What happens is the kid is kidnapped, killed and then days/weeks later the CCTV is reviewed to see if it can be worked out who did it. Entirely retrospective.

Except that the CCTV helps you find the lost kid BEFORE the kidnappers realises the kid is easy prey (and that happens pretty much every day in most places) - without CCTV finding the kid is much more difficult.

 

[Shude]

Except that the CCTV helps you find the lost kid BEFORE the kidnappers realises the kid is easy prey (and that happens pretty much every day in most places) - without CCTV finding the kid is much more difficult.

Is child abduction that common?

 

[Swiss Toni]

Is child abduction that common?

Lost kids are, abduction isn't ('cause of all the cameras you see.... )

 

[Thmsshaun]

I'm with you, if it only stops one kid being kidnapped and killed it is worth the price.

If someone has it in them to kidnap and kill a camera will not do a single thing to stop it other than film it.

However an officer patrolling in the same area? Then you have a chance the person will A) think twice B) Get caught before the killing / crime takes place.

I always look back to the film Enemey of the State and that is very much the way surveillance is going.

 

[Spinal]

Interesting point Toni... tell me, where do you get your figures regarding Italy's organised crime rates? I was fairly certain that organised crime (as a pose to corruption) was far more widespread in places like Las Vegas, Japan, China, Australia, England, Wales, Netherlands and Sweden. Strangely enough, on just about every survey I can find, England and Australia seem to be on the high lists. Strangely enough, when asked about how "safe" people feel on streets, England again features as one of the most anxious... Strange for a population that is so "safely" covered by CCTV

As I was about to close google... this headline popped up " British Crime Rates Higher Than the U.S." hmmm.... are we going to start a debate on Guns vs No Guns? My point is, crime is a complex phenomenon. It is impossible to say "put CCTV and crime will dissapear". It wont. CCTV might make oppurtunists think twice, but not criminals (generally speaking). The only thing that (imho) would make a criminal think twice is a well deployed policeman (or two). Single automated MACHINES wont stop criminals. They are machines; machines don't have common sense.

Michele

Quick edit... the economistseems to paint a quite grim picture of England...
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=513031

Now don't say I'm rambling based on stereotypes... Mafia is ONE family in Italy. So is the Camorra, and the Andrangeta. Those are the main 3 families; there are quite a few more in Italy which DON'T engange in criminal activity. Don't rely on stereotypes, it might come around and bite you

Oh, and here is a lovely little study made by the British government. http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/cctv/cctv33.htm
Lets say its not little, weighing roughly 58 pages... But here is an extract:

It has been suggested by some that the development of town centre CCTV systems has been driven more by the availability of government funding than by any crime prevention principle. This study attempts to assess if crime prevention is the main reason for the existence of town centre CCTV in Gillingham

Now, playing devils advocate, I don't agree with such studies... Reason being, the CCTV cameras over a relatively short period of time (5 years) would show quite increased police activity; which imo would be the true deterred to criminals as a pose to CCTv. But the study is there none-the-less...

GAH! MUST stop editing! I just thought this was curious... Did you know that Australia (another one of our "high crime-rate friends") is also in the high-CCTV list? Apparently, our ozzie friends are debating if THEY are being over watched too... I would like to propose that CCTV is the cause of crime

Michele

 

[Swiss Toni]

Don't rely on stereotypes, it might come around and bite you

Michele

Damn. I believed what I saw on the telly.

 

[andy_k]

CCTV is fine if it's used to "protect and serve" but when push comes to shove how often will tapes mysteriosly disappear or all the cameras in a tube station be out of order when an innocent member of the public is "accidentally" shot by the police?

Cameras don't stop "proper criminals", as a simple example - I'm sure when Kenneth Noye and his mates pulled off the Brinks Mat robbery the place was covered by CCTV but they still got away with a huge amount

Misuse of the information gleaned is far more of a concern than being watched. I'd be totally happy if I knew the computers were 100% secure, that any person who has access to the system has been fully screened and is constantly monitored but sadly this isn't currently the case as government employees working for a certain agency have access to your drivers licence, bank account, national insurance records, income tax, emploment record, credit rating and several other vitally important databases. The agency in question? I'm sure you'll all sleep a lot sounder if I tell you it's the CSA won't you? Because they could never make a mistake................or could they?

The government computer systems are unreliable, the databases they use are maintained by lowly paid clerical staff yet we are happy to accept that as long as we are not criminals then we are OK - sorry but that's like an ostrich buring it's head in the sand or a hedgehog curling up in a little ball in the face of an oncoming truck.

Andy

 

[Swiss Toni]

The government computer systems are unreliable, the databases they use are maintained by lowly paid clerical staff yet we are happy to accept that as long as we are not criminals then we are OK - sorry but that's like an ostrich buring it's head in the sand or a hedgehog curling up in a little ball in the face of an oncoming truck.

Andy

Of course, you are right.

But the following is also true...

Commercial computer systems are unreliable, the databases they use are maintained by lowly paid clerical staff yet we are happy to accept that as long as we are not criminals then we are OK - sorry but that's like an ostrich buring it's head in the sand or a hedgehog curling up in a little ball in the face of an oncoming truck.