E63 new tyres needed? - summer tyres or all-season?

[AlexM]

Hi Everyone,

I know this has been covered quite a lot, but I wanted to open the discussion again and seek input from you all.

Situation is that my P-Zeros are worn, 3-4mm tread left but they are now at the point of giving up grip in low temps, especially at the rear. I was driving in the rain yesterday and I was shocked at the incredible ease of getting wheel spin. It really doesn't feel safe to drive. Interestingly, lateral grip doesn't seem to have suffered quite as badly, but either way you are driving on tippy toes. I understand that a drop-off in grip is a characteristic of the P-Zeros when worn, and they clearly don't work too well when cold.

So, my choices (as I see them) are:

1) Replace P-Zeros with another summer tyre -Probably Goodyear Eagle F1 Assym. 3
2) Replace with a 'proper' winter tyre in 255/35R19 all year around - something like a Nokian, and then buy new Summer tyres next year.
3) Replace with an all season tyre - Michelin Alpin P4 in normal sizes 255/35/R19 + 285/30R19

Option 3 is pricey if I will regret running them year-round and will want summer tyres, i.e. expensive winter tyres and new set of summer tyres next year. proper winter tyres are less expensive, but definitely need replacing next year.

Option 1) might be feasible if they will work well enough to get through winter. I clearly wouldn't be driving in snow (tried that last year - didn't go well, was lucky not to have an accident).

To clarify, I will be retaining existing rims as I don't have enough cash atm for a spare set, much as I'd like to.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers,
Alex

 

[SukySangha]

I installed Goodyear asymmetric 3 a couple of months ago on my E63s AMG and they are good tyres imo. I had these on my CLS 55 AMG and was very happy with the performance hence why i went for them again for my E63. Try them out you wont be disappointed as I found them to perform all year around.

 

[JDL60]

I did 2)
Uniroyal MS77 Plus which are very confidence giving in the cold, and not too expensive (£600 for 4, fitted when I got them)
My intention was to replace the rear P zeros on mine in Spring- as you said at 4mm they were beginning to wiggle a bit. However generally I’ve been pleasantly surprised by them, having had them on other cars in the past and hated them!

 

[st13phil]

OK, here's my take on it based on personal experience:

I've run Michelin Pilot Alpin 4's in a square (255/35/R19) setup all round for the last two winters and because it's been pretty mild and benign weather-wise so far this autumn, I'm just about to re-mount them for this winter. They are not really an all season tyre, rather they are a high-performance winter tyre that perhaps sacrifice a tiny fraction of ultimate winter performance to give better feel and performance in less challenging conditions. My experience with them is that they work really well even through heavy snowfalls and are good in warmer conditions too. They are exceptionally quiet and give a very good ride, however, in summer conditions they really aren't as good as...

The Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 3's that I run in the regular staggered setup. These have proven to deliver similar performance to P-Zeros and Conti 5P's when new, but are much quieter. My set are pretty much at the end of their life now, having covered an astonishing 16k miles - at least 3k more than I've ever had from P-Zeros or 5P's. Front end grip and feel is still massively superior to worn P-Zeros in cold, wet, conditions but rear traction is quite easy to break (although not as easy as worn P-Zeros). I'd say that overall their performance throughout their life has been similar to, perhaps marginally edging, that of Conti 5P's but they've lasted almost 25% longer. And they're cheaper, so it's a win all round.

So, returning to your question. Bearing in mind where you're located (not that far from me), unless you absolutely have to be mobile in all winter conditions, are planning to travel to where snow is pretty much a certainty, or you really must have the last bit of grip available when its below 3-4c, I'd put on a set of Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 3's and be done with it.

 

[AlexM]

Thanks all for your input. I've decided to go with the Goodyear's - £620 Inc vat from tyre leader.

The Michelin Alpins were just too much to justify themselves - if it snows I'll take my wife's ford focus and crash that instead.

I hope they manage ok in the cold for the balance of the winter.

Regards,
Alex

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

 

[abar121]

Good choice! I replaced my rear Assymetric 2s with 3s a couple of weeks ago as they were getting a bit low on tread and becoming a liability in the wet.

The new Assymetric 3s doing great. Even just above freezing, they are gripping well, wet or dry.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Hi Everyone,

I know this has been covered quite a lot, but I wanted to open the discussion again and seek input from you all.

Situation is that my P-Zeros are worn, 3-4mm tread left but they are now at the point of giving up grip in low temps, especially at the rear. I was driving in the rain yesterday and I was shocked at the incredible ease of getting wheel spin. It really doesn't feel safe to drive. Interestingly, lateral grip doesn't seem to have suffered quite as badly, but either way you are driving on tippy toes. I understand that a drop-off in grip is a characteristic of the P-Zeros when worn, and they clearly don't work too well when cold.

So, my choices (as I see them) are:

1) Replace P-Zeros with another summer tyre -Probably Goodyear Eagle F1 Assym. 3
2) Replace with a 'proper' winter tyre in 255/35R19 all year around - something like a Nokian, and then buy new Summer tyres next year.
3) Replace with an all season tyre - Michelin Alpin P4 in normal sizes 255/35/R19 + 285/30R19

Option 3 is pricey if I will regret running them year-round and will want summer tyres, i.e. expensive winter tyres and new set of summer tyres next year. proper winter tyres are less expensive, but definitely need replacing next year.

Option 1) might be feasible if they will work well enough to get through winter. I clearly wouldn't be driving in snow (tried that last year - didn't go well, was lucky not to have an accident).

To clarify, I will be retaining existing rims as I don't have enough cash atm for a spare set, much as I'd like to.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers,
Alex

Do bear in mind that the change in temperature and slippier road surface will affect newer tyres too. A big, heavy automatic RWD car with lots of power will always find it difficult on summer performance tyres (in winter), even new ones.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Stick with the summer tyres and use them as an excuse to travel everywhere sideways...

 

[AlexM]

Do bear in mind that the change in temperature and slippier road surface will affect newer tyres too. A big, heavy automatic RWD car with lots of power will always find it difficult on summer performance tyres (in winter), even new ones.

Hi,

Yes I'm aware that a summer tyre won't work very well in the winter. Seven degrees is supposed to be the point at which winter tyres will start to work better, or so I read. In practice, new summer tyres seen better than old, but I'm not sure why that should be.

In the snow last year I had to take to take the e63 out to pick up my son who was stranded. I almost failed to get up a very shallow hill until I turned of TC and gunned it. On the way down I had no braking and was very lucky not to have an accident. I certainly won't be doing that again.

Hopefully the Goodyear's will be softer than the Pirellis and will work better in the cold and wet.

Regards,
Alex

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

 

[Deleted member 126251]

How often will you be driving in temps below 7 degrees (the supposed cut-off for summer tyres)?

10 years ago we did not have "winter tyres" and seemed to get on just fine.

More money for tyre manufacturers??

 

[AlexM]

How often will you be driving in temps below 7 degrees (the supposed cut-off for summer tyres)?

10 years ago we did not have "winter tyres" and seemed to get on just fine.

More money for tyre manufacturers??

Well, quite often over the winter. Last year was a salutory lesson in how rubbish a powerful rear drive automatic car is in even light snow.

My old Astra on bicycle tyres was fine!. The continentals have been using different tyres across the seasons for tonks and they definitely work. I think 7 degrees is not a cut off, simply the point at which grip declines. That is.manageable if you're a sensible driver (I hope)

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[st13phil]

How often will you be driving in temps below 7 degrees (the supposed cut-off for summer tyres)?

My commute starts at 7am and I'd say that in the average winter, most mornings are below that temperature.

10 years ago we did not have "winter tyres" and seemed to get on just fine.

The reality is that if you're using less specialised tyres you still can get on relatively fine.

However, the ultra high performance tyres that are fitted on the current crop of high performance cars tend to have a narrower temperature window in which they work well, and that window is biased towards warmer conditions. The 7 degrees you mention is a generally accepted cross-over point below which grip falls away for summer tyres, and above which grip falls away for winter tyres. It's not a cliff edge, and neither type of tyre suddenly becomes useless as you cross the 7 degrees threshold.

 

[Deleted member 126251]

That is more or less how I look at it. I'm not a tyre expert but assume winter grip will not be as good as summer & so drive accordingly. Was out this morning (6.5 deg) on roads I know and driving at the speed limit had no grip issues (twisty country roads). I have pretty soft rubber on my "summer" tyres.

 

[Psilonaught]

Hi,

Yes I'm aware that a summer tyre won't work very well in the winter. Seven degrees is supposed to be the point at which winter tyres will start to work better, or so I read. In practice, new summer tyres seen better than old, but I'm not sure why that should be.

In the snow last year I had to take to take the e63 out to pick up my son who was stranded. I almost failed to get up a very shallow hill until I turned of TC and gunned it. On the way down I had no braking and was very lucky not to have an accident. I certainly won't be doing that again.

Hopefully the Goodyear's will be softer than the Pirellis and will work better in the cold and wet.

Regards,
Alex

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

This is why you must use winters in winter, I wouldn't dream of driving my e63 in the snow on summers, it wound be suicide.

Last winter I was able to drive uphill in fresh snow, the grip was phenomenal, and also a really fun experience.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

In the snow last year I had to take to take the e63 out to pick up my son who was stranded. I almost failed to get up a very shallow hill until I turned of TC and gunned it. On the way down I had no braking and was very lucky not to have an accident. I certainly won't be doing that again.

Hopefully the Goodyear's will be softer than the Pirellis and will work better in the cold and wet.

New summer tyres may (or may not) be very marginally better in cold conditions, but in snow and very slippery conditions you’ll still be a passenger in the way you describe. Winter Tyres really do transform the ability to drive a car (which is designed for performance summer tyres) in winter. They’re like witchcraft.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

How often will you be driving in temps below 7 degrees (the supposed cut-off for summer tyres)?

10 years ago we did not have "winter tyres" and seemed to get on just fine.

More money for tyre manufacturers??

You may not have, but some of us did. The trend for wider high performance tyres, and the remarkable growth in the number of very powerful cars in daily use, are the reason it’s becoming more common.

The need for a second set of tyres could be alleviated if we all used winter tyres only. I believe that using winter tyres in summer is a better compromise than summer Tyres in winter.

 

[bluestreak]

With searing temperatures this winter in London and Kingston keeping summer tyres is a sound financial advice.

I've not used Goodyear on E63, but I'm sure they are as good choice as any. I can also recommend Michelin PS4S for next time.

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[Deleted member 126251]

You may not have, but some of us did. The trend for wider high performance tyres, and the remarkable growth in the number of very powerful cars in daily use, are the reason it’s becoming more common.

The need for a second set of tyres could be alleviated if we all used winter tyres only. I believe that using winter tyres in summer is a better compromise than summer Tyres in winter.

If you have to use your "high performance" car as a daily driver ....maybe. I think it is more about how you drive and winter tyres will not help if you do not drive to the conditions or go out in frozen conditions.

However, Mr Average will rarely (really) need a set of winter winter tyres and they will still not help in icy conditions (and probably give the driver a false sense of security).

I lived and worked in Kazakstan (3 years) where -20C was good day in winter and back then, we drove on summer tyres on snow ploughed & gritted roads - it was a case of driving to the conditions.

I am fortunate that if it is a really bad day, I do not need to use my car (retired) but will look at all season tyres when I have to buy the next set (Michelins are getting good reviews). I am not one of those that has to have the "grippiest" tyres available (truly don't see the point unless you take your car onto the track - which I have done to find the limits of the car).

Many vehicles are becoming available with some sort of 4wd and I see even less need for winter tyres with one of them.

As for powerful cars becoming more prevalent, agreed so we will have more idiots crashing in any conditions especially when they trickle down into the used car market.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Many vehicles are becoming available with some sort of 4wd and I see even less need for winter tyres with one of them.

Out of interest, which size tyres are fitted to your SL?



If both cars have performance summer tyres, when pulling away from rest in snow the advantage of 4WD over RWD is smaller than many might expect, and has no advantage for steering and braking in snow There’s even less advantage of 4WD in general wintery conditions unless accelerating hardfrom rest.

The trend for bigger wheels on all cars means that tyre choice is limited to performance tyres, so cars which ought not have a problem in theory, do have a problem in practice. In larger sizes it will be difficult to find an option which is not performance orientated, driven by demand from both car manufacturers and drivers.

You only need to have difficulties driving in snow once to make winter tyres seem like a good idea. It’s only once you have them that you realise how they improve driving in general wintery conditions, but snow is where the transformation is most obvious.

I would take a RWD performance car with winter tyres (which would be otherwise undriveable on summer performance tyres) over a modern 4x4 with performance summer tyres. My cars have a combination of 4WD, RWD, summer Tyres and winter tyres, and in bad weather I would tase them in this order:

1. 4WD with winter tyres
2. RWD with winter tyres
3. 4WD with summer tyres
4. RWD with summer tyres

I’ve not driven FWD cars more than 20 years and so I don’t have any real experience.

 

[Steve84N]

FWD is better than RWD in snow but your order is correct.

Some outdated views coming over in this thread...

I have run through many winters on summer tyres and you can cope just fine, apart from snow when it's very dodgy and easy to get stuck. I'm now running PA4 winter tyres for the first time and it is worth it even when there's not snow.

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RWD beats 4WD every time including acceleration!