Hydrogen and MB's

[LezT]

Anyone got anythoughts on running Hydrogen Generators to increase MPG on MB's ?
Tested one on an L200 Mitzi for a while and turned about 20% better MPG. Going to be trialing one on my ML270 in a few weeks, after getting a months worth of mpg figures as a data start for the comparisons.

 

[DITTRICH]

If I understand correctly, the alternator provides electricity which splits H20 into H2 and O2 which then get injected into the cylinder with the fuel? But the alternator requires energy to turn itself (which comes from burning fuel). Both the alternator and the generator will not be 100% efficient so surely this is just adding more inefficiency (and less economy) into the whole setup? I don't understand. Unless the alternator is producing electricity and the battery is fully charged...even so, still not convinced. If so good it would be in production cars from the factory. Les

 

[Troon]

No-one has shown an experimentally-robust FE improvement using HHO / Brown's Gas / whatever you want to call it. The theory sounds plausible - that adding the mix into the combustion increases the efficiency more than enough to offset the energy needed for the water-splitting - but in practice, reports are all anecdotal.

LezT - your 20% quoted on the L200 is experimentally meaningless if the person driving is the same one who fitted it and is expecting improved results (you). You will see a significant increase in economy just by increased awareness of driving style. A real test would be to secretly fit it to some company fleet vehicles and not tell the drivers.

As stated, manufacturers are very interested in economy improvements and if this were real, it'd be on all production cars overnight.

 

[Tinkerer]

Sounds like the dear old second law of thermodynamics rearing it's ugly head again .............. every system has it's own inefficiency and there is NO such thing as a free lunch!

 

[LezT]

I would be sceptical too if this had not been proven in 3 different vehicles over a long period. One that tow's regularly across the Highlands onto Skye.
I will keep anyone interested updated with the figures that I get.
The unit that I will be trialling has a current draw of 2.4A, too little to be of any real consequence to the power loss via extra draw on the alternator.
@ Troon, i totally agree, but tried my best to drive the same in all cases to prove / disprove the theory.

 

[grober]

Holy Hindenburg Batman! Guess it might work if it used the surplus energy with a sort of engine overrun regeneration set up-- bit like the present stop start systems but it would need some clever control circuitry and maybe a different alternator? Be interested to hear how you get on.

 

[eihtur]

If I understand correctly, the alternator provides electricity which splits H20 into H2 and O2 which then get injected into the cylinder with the fuel? But the alternator requires energy to turn itself (which comes from burning fuel). Both the alternator and the generator will not be 100% efficient so surely this is just adding more inefficiency (and less economy) into the whole setup? I don't understand. Unless the alternator is producing electricity and the battery is fully charged...even so, still not convinced. If so good it would be in production cars from the factory. Les

Surely just splits into H and O. O2 is a phone company.

 

[dinoy]

be interested to here about HHO system that work, i understand it would increase MPG but not replace it, and clean your engine and provide less emission if it works will be great forget about HIGHER MPG lowe emissions will be good on itself.

keep us updated

 

[DITTRICH]

Surely just splits into H and O. O2 is a phone company.

Both Hydrogen and Oxygen are diatomic gases. Their atoms wander about in pairs. Now you know where O2's name comes from.

 

[LezT]

The system is only active when the engine is running, there is no storage tank etc for the Hydrogen, it is produces as necessary whilst driving, this is the simplicity of it, for the first 5 mins or so there is very little Hyd' made but after that, it just bubbles away and gives you extra fuel. Not strictly true but it gives a better use of gases and allows the same power ( slight increase) but with less throttle, hence the MPG increase.
Imagine it as always driving witha tail wind...

 

[eihtur]

Both Hydrogen and Oxygen are diatomic gases. Their atoms wander about in pairs. Now you know where O2's name comes from.

But they are H and O...even in the periodic table.

 

[DITTRICH]

The only way I can see this working is if:-

1 The alternator is producing current and the battery is already fully charged.
and / or
2 The hydrogen somehow improves the efficiency of the combustion process

Troon is dead right about the testing though. It would need to be tested in a double blind trial for a large number of vehicles in order to prove the point one way or another.

I can influence the efficiency of my cars merely by pumping up the tires, closing the sun roof and windows, turning off aircon and other electiricty consumers etc.

 

[Beno]

just playing devils advocate. If it worked wouldn't all major motor manufacturers all ready use this system? or at least patent it to stop any one else using it?

 

[LezT]

@DITTRICH, the Hydrogen does improve engine efficiency and as such MPG,
the very small amount of current used is equivelant to having the sidelights on if you add together the 4 x sidelights and the clocks etc, I have never really noticed a marked reduction in MPG whilst driving throughout the winter, and that would be with headlights and heater, heated mirrors, and rear screen etc , using far more power than the Hydrogen genny does.
I will concede that an aircon pomp will draw a certain amout of power from the engine but the alternator is not in the same league.

 

[LezT]

@ Beno, can you imagine the revenue lost to the IR if this was allowed to be installed for general use ?

 

[Beno]

I work at a research center and its not something I've come across. I'll ask at work tomorrow if any one has tried tested it.

 

[LezT]

At a guess, it'll be the one just up the road from me, close to the A127 ?

 

[DITTRICH]

The periodic table merely lists the symbols for each element. The generators we are talking about are often referred to as HHO generators but HHO is not the correct terminology (which is H2O in according to my understanding). However, when you generate hydrogen or oxygen the end product is H2 or O2 not H or O.
2 x H2O > 2H2 + O2 thus from O level chemistry 35 years ago.

 

[martyz]

@ Beno, can you imagine the revenue lost to the IR if this was allowed to be installed for general use ?

just like perpetual motion,it would sour the profits of the mighty,any discovery in this field will be put down PDQ.

 

[johnsco]

Laws of thermo-dynamics (Yorkshire version)
1. You can't get 'owt for nowt
2. You can only get your money back at absolute vero.
3. You can't reach absolute zero