Hydrogen and MB's

[hotrodder]

Electrolysis of water it was first done a couple of centuries ago, many of us probably did the experiments at school. It's nothing new or magic and it takes more energy to 'crack' water than you get from the components [/pesky thermodynamics]

The HHO thing... only guessing but i've always thought they were referred to that way partly because 'snake oil' salesmen like to make things up and partly because water = H2O, cracking one molecule of it gives 2 x H + 1 x O or HHO. As said once two water molecules have been cracked they rearrange themselves into H2 and O2 which results in 2H2 + 02

I've debated this with someone in the pub before... after we got through the nonsense (that admittedly not everyone tries to pull) about the alternator producing the electricity for 'free' we got onto combustion. Hydrogen has a high RON with lean mixtures, a higher auto ignition temp but it has a lower ignition energy and burns quickly. I can't remember how its specific energy (by weight so probably good) or energy density (by volume so probably not so good) compare to petrol but it's safe to say it all gets complicated. Especially when alcohol is involved. It all fell apart at this stage as in the 'pro' camp all that was offered was 'fantastic' mpg that couldn't be backed up while the sceptic camp (me in this story) couldn't get past the laws of thermodynamics and a standard engine (CR etc) not being optomised to make the most of hydrogen. Perhaps if the pro camp had gone at it from an angle of small amounts of hydrogen act as an octane booster allowing leaner mixtures i might not have got bored

What's needed for people to look at this more seriously is some proper numbers which in most (if not all) cases aren't gonna be forthcoming as it's easier to sell snake oil with claims of 'upto 20 or 30% better mpg'. This thread is the first time i remember seeing numbers for the amperage 'pull' on the alternator to power the generator. What's missing is how much 'HHO' that produces and it's effect on mixtures needed to avoid knock, high combustion temps etc. I got pulled into the above debate because i'd been approached regarding titanium (i fabricate with and weld the stuff from time to time) as apparently commercially pure Ti is the hot ticket for making the generators more efficient which i guess is the holy grail

 

[dinoy]

the systems exist, a guy in MIT done it, never been in production, as oil companies years ago will kill if such system works and as they will be out of business, i believe government have researched the subject.

it is perfect infact to use whilst engine running so u do not not have to store hydrogen or oxygen.

in germany experiments where done with hydrogen cars and network of hydrogen filling stations, that system means u are driving around like suicide bomber unless tank is protected heavily which is another cost

this system will not work in hot country exiting fumes from the car is steam in hot country or LA means smog.

it is only useful in europe or colder parts of the world.

it is all possible u look on youtube u see many examples i am never seen a working one, and besides even if give 50% more miles and cleans your engine from carbon is good enough. maybe boris will reduce your taxes in london and/or conjestion charge.

hey why not if it works we could be in business, and tomorrow solar roof paint can be used to generate electricity too!!

dreaming is good if it can make apples fall from trees just like gravity

 

[Spinal]

Slightly off topic.... but a topic that has always interested me...

If the issue with Hydrogen cars is the safety/stability of Hydrogen, why don't we use a Hydrogen "mix" (not sure what) which reacts with water? e.g H2Fe (or something on those lines... obviously H2Fe wont react with water fast enough).

The idea would be, you have two totally non-flammable substances,

H2? + H20 => 2H2 + ?0

The waster would then be the oxidised form of the hydrogen binder...

Obviously the crux would lie in finding the right material to bind the hydrogen with, while reacting with water to break off when needed... (Caesium? )

Just a pub thought really...

M.

 

[dinoy]

h2o + heo = 2h2 + o2 and both pumped to engine to create the explosion which cleans engine and produces water in the exhause that is why not suitable in hot countries as in summer it will be like driving behind sunna

 

[grober]

http://129.16.137.67/nanoscience/SupplimentaryMaterials2011/Christoph/Z%FCttel_Schlapbach_Nature.pdf

 

[Spinal]

h2o + heo = 2h2 + o2 and both pumped to engine to create the explosion which cleans engine and produces water in the exhause that is why not suitable in hot countries as in summer it will be like driving behind sunna

There's an issue with that formula...
h2o + heo = 2h2 + o2


Given that E is not an element, I presume you mean:
H2O + HeO = 2H2 + O2

In which case, it doesn't balance out. Where does the Helium go?

Secondly, Helium is a noble gas, so cannot oxidize, so HeO isn't a possible combination from my understanding.

I'm sure someone with a firmer grasp of chemistry can help...
M.

 

[Troon]

just like perpetual motion,it would sour the profits of the mighty,any discovery in this field will be put down PDQ.

the systems exist, a guy in MIT done it, never been in production, as oil companies years ago will kill if such system works and as they will be out of business, i believe government have researched the subject.

The usual conspiracy theory nonsense. Oil companies have very little influence - look at the rise of the electric car and the radical increase in internal combustion engine economy over the last decade.

"A guy in MIT done it"? Let's see the peer-reviewed paper then. Adding self-produced hydrogen has never been shown to have a net benefit in the general case. The idea of producing the gas as part of a regenerative braking system is interesting, though.

in germany experiments where done with hydrogen cars and network of hydrogen filling stations, that system means u are driving around like suicide bomber unless tank is protected heavily which is another cost

Unlike a tank of petrol? The energy stored is higher in a petrol tank.

this system will not work in hot country exiting fumes from the car is steam in hot country or LA means smog.

Whilst it is true that the exhaust is water vapour (not steam) for the hydrogen-powered car in your previous paragraph, this is not the case for the Brown's Gas modification being discussed in this topic. There may be slightly more water vapour in the exhaust, but not significant.

it is all possible u look on youtube u see many examples i am never seen a working one, and besides even if give 50% more miles and cleans your engine from carbon is good enough. maybe boris will reduce your taxes in london and/or conjestion charge.

Yes, there are several on YouTube. The mechanics are simple - the critical point is whether the efficiency improvement is positive or negative once the load of the gas generator is accounted for. This is what has not been proven in robust long-term blind tests.

dreaming is good if it can make apples fall from trees just like gravity

Yes, and I applaud the people that are trying to make it work; and I hope a real benefit is proven. It hasn't been yet despite many attempts.

 

[Bellow]

octane booster allowing leaner mixtures

What's needed for people to look at this more seriously

Quite.

 

[LezT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrodder
octane booster allowing leaner mixtures


Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrodder
What's needed for people to look at this more seriously

Quite.


This was my reason for asking the question in the first place to see if anyone has looked at this seriously for MB's, as I said before, we have 3 L200's now running with hydrogen genny's on ( all different makes and sizes ) with monthly MPG comparisons for each system, testing is done 1 month on and 1 month off, same journeys and driving patterns.
I will be running from Basildon to Lewisham 5 days a week and around 100 miles each weekend About 1500 per month. Even with 'adapted' driving patterns as was suggested in an earlier post, if there is a significant difference then there is evidence that it has legs.
I would have to doing Miss Daisy with the hyd on and driving like I stole it with it off to get a major difference in MPG, which I have no intention of doing, it'll prove nothing to me or anyone else.

 

[LTD]

Can we not attach probes to the bodywork and harvest the energy released as the bodywork corrodes ?