MSL vs GAD

[NicesS212indaUK]

Greetings to all and respect to the veterans,

I’m writing this after reading extensively through this and other forums in regards to the OM642 engine, what to look out for, how to look after, and the reason for this thread, who to look up when wanting to tune.

I’ll start with what I want: 310-315hp and 750Nm following a remap or a remap and an exhaust mod.

After considerate lecture on this forum, it came down to GAD or MSL. Some users judged by their customer service, this is not the case here, I am looking for the best end product.

After talks with both garages, the offers I have to decide between are:

1) remap and exhaust work for x price, numbers quoted 295hp and 690nm from MSL
2) remap only for same price, numbers quoted 315hp and 750nm from GAD

Question for the forum: disregarding personal opinions on mots or pollution, from a strictly mechanical point of view, it is common knowledge that an unrestricted exhaust equals a more healthy engine, which — when tuning, translates into marginal increases in performance. What are the numbers, the real numbers to be expected from the 350CDI 265hp 620nm engine after a remap?

In my experience, tuners (especially the ones with exquisite customer service, who butter you up from the beginning) have their ways to inflate the numbers their dyno puts out. My 640d was remapped by DMS and while their dyno showed 397hp, I had 2 different other dyno read outs printed and those read 371 and 378, so yes, I am aware of and accustomed to these practices that popular tuners do.

The reason for this poll is simple: I am making an appeal to the collective knowledge of this forum to help me make the correct decision: is there any logical reason for a tuner to be able to safely squeeze out of an engine with just a remap more than a different tuner can with a straight through exhaust, or is it better to doubt the numbers they claim?

I will be looking out for your answers.



XandeR

 

[Alps]

Both sets of numbers will be ball park, MSL dyne always under reads the figures, so depending on car and dyne the figures will vary. I have had a number of Cars tuned at MSL, event though GAD are local, id still travel the distance to \MSL as I have had experience of the proven figures and reliability of their maps.

The choice is yours , I think MSL definitely are more experienced with the Mercedes platform.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Did you tell both tuner’s that your specific requirement is 315 BHP and 750 Nm? The reason I ask is that it’s a remarkable coincidence that it’s exactly what GAD have told you they can achieve. Or did you decide that’s your requirement after finding out what GAD can offer?

By your own admission there is so much variation - including smoke and mirrors tactics employed by some tuners - then I would personally go with who you most trust to do the job safely, and deal with afterwards if there’s a problem.

Without hardware changes, all tuners are constrained by the parameters available in the ECU, and so only have the same levers to pull, and so unsurprisingly they end up with similar numbers. The difference is how safe & reliable they want their numbers to be.

All tuners may be able to squeeze a bit more but draw a line at what they think is a safe limit, so if requested by a customer may be able to get a little bit more. Whether you’d ever feel the benefit is questionable, but you would certainly feel the financial consequences if limits are pushed too far.

 

[Peanut Budda]

Is this the GAD we're talking about?

GAD-Motors. Power to Emotion

GAD-Motors GmbH. High-end performance kits for the various Mercedes, Lamborghini, Porsche, Aston Martin. Super fast cars for daily using.

www.gad-motors.de

 

[SmartAmg]

Welcome, by the way, I had my 265bhp C207 mapped at neither of those, and got 300bhp and 718 Nm torque, so 315bhp and 750Nm torque of just a map, is possible is suppose. Both companies do get good results.

 

[Rich764089]

Quite difficult to get an objective opinion as the majority are likely to have used one or the other, not both.....

 

[AMGeed]

Is this the GAD we're talking about?

GAD-Motors. Power to Emotion

GAD-Motors GmbH. High-end performance kits for the various Mercedes, Lamborghini, Porsche, Aston Martin. Super fast cars for daily using.

www.gad-motors.de

No.
Its GAD uk.

ECU Remapping and Car Tuning with 2wd/4wd Rolling Road - Essex

Car tuning, ECU Remapping, specialists in Engine ECU Tuning. London, Essex and beyond for ECU Remapping & Car Engine Tuning. Equipped with a 4wd rolling road.

gadtuning.co.uk

 

[AMGeed]

Quite difficult to get an objective opinion as the majority are likely to have used one or the other, not both.....

Exactly. I have used MSL to remap my E63 and I'm very pleased with the results and would always recommend them for Mercedes tuning.
That said, GAD have their followers and have plenty of satisfied customers.

 

[NicesS212indaUK]

Did you tell both tuner’s that your specific requirement is 315 BHP and 750 Nm? The reason I ask is that it’s a remarkable coincidence that it’s exactly what GAD have told you they can achieve. Or did you decide that’s your requirement after finding out what GAD can offer?

A member of this forum reported 332hp and 705nm with just a remap, which sounded good until he mentioned it was done by DMS and lost all credibility. My requirement was set before I talked to GAD, the thing that’s on my mind is, if MSL, who are a reputable tuner, known to under quote their numbers and overdeliver (see replies) are saying 300hp and 700nm is the max, then the results I’ve seen online of 310-315hp and 730-750nm are as real as my 400hp 640d from DMS…

On the BMW 640d the limit, the true limit for only a remap, is 380hp, when the dyno reads true. With intercooler and downpipe you can push to 400hp, yet my graph from DMS was saying 400 with just the remap.

Coming back to this poll, I reckon GAD, with all their happy customers and no complaints of damaged gearboxes or blown turbos or whatnot, are very similar to DMS.

I mean, MSL is quoting lesser numbers with the DPF off, and they have members here who can vouch for their solid work.

GAD is claiming bigger numbers with a higher risk factor (DPF in, higher EGTs, increased back pressure, etc), yet there are no faults, no complaints. All happy customers. Like our colleague who had a remap and his engine put out 332hp, or me when I was expecting 380hp and got 400hp instead. In my case, I took my scepticism seriously and done another 2 dyno runs — it turned out the original numbers were inflated.

I’ve reached a conclusion: between the people who ask for less money while they do more work and the ones who ask for more money because they are the creators of a vehicle that was in a magazine some years back, I choose to go with the first.

What Alps said goes a long way, even the trip to both GAD and MSL are the exact same for me too.

Like stated already, I have had inflated numbers by a tuner not too long ago and I now start to recognise a familiar feeling when dealing with GAD…


Thank you all for your input and for helping to reach a decision.

The poll will remain open for a few more days as per instructions when I started it so feel free to continue voting.


I will report back once things are done with MSL.




XandeR

 

[Rich764089]

You mention damaged components... what I would say about MSL is that Acid will deliberately limit the remap gains to protect components, I.e. it's about long-term customer satisfaction, not who can achieve the highest number. Same may be true for others...

 

[Jobsworth]

Numbers are just numbers. If you are happy with how it drives, and it doesn’t go bang it’s all good. If you only want bragging rights, good luck.

 

[MrGreedy]

I think MSL are all over petrol V8 AMGs as their preferred product territory, but recent forum feedback suggests they are much less inclined to look at the OM642. They used to no probs, but not so much now.

GAD will do the before and after dyno runs for the price they charge, and that is what you are interested in: the difference. I don't know if MSL do that as standard in the quoted price on a smokey 6 banger.

As for the technical what's best, GAD have posted lots of initial dyno runs on relatively new factory Mercs, and their dyno does seem to give numbers very very close to factory (not talking AMGs here), so I would be less worried about the accuracy (or over reading) of their dyno.

The remap will get what it can get. Might be less, might be top end of numbers. They won't pretend it's 315/700 If it's not on the day. If it's around the 315/700 and you're concerned that is too much, give them a call to discuss and I'm sure they can scale that back a bit for your requirments on the remap.

I don't understand the benefits of exhaust work in the OM642 i.e. 1-2 bhp marginal, or 10bhp+ worthwhile.

 

[Jobsworth]

I think MSL are all over petrol V8 AMGs as their preferred product territory, but recent forum feedback suggests they are much less inclined to look at the OM642. They used to no probs, but not so much now.

GAD will do the before and after dyno runs for the price they charge, and that is what you are interested in: the difference. I don't know if MSL do that as standard in the quoted price on a smokey 6 banger.

As for the technical what's best, GAD have posted lots of initial dyno runs on relatively new factory Mercs, and their dyno does seem to give numbers very very close to factory (not talking AMGs here), so I would be less worried about the accuracy (or over reading) of their dyno.

The remap will get what it can get. Might be less, might be top end of numbers. They won't pretend it's 315/700 If it's not on the day. If it's around the 315/700 and you're concerned that is too much, give them a call to discuss and I'm sure they can scale that back a bit for your requirments on the remap.

I don't understand the benefits of exhaust work in the OM642 i.e. 1-2 bhp marginal, or 10bhp+ worthwhile.

As well as DPF removal becoming a headache for MoT and selling the car on later. Which we aren’t talking about

 

[f17ant]

Yes exhaust work always helps a engine produce more power, especially if it’s complimented with a map. But in your chase I don’t think exhaust work will give you anything it’s usually decats that have the best gain.

Save your money on the exhaust work and just get the map from MSL they probably using the same map anyways but least with MSL they look after Mercedes’ (service them repair them) so they would see remapped cars that do a lot of miles and know what’s safe for your car

 

[NicesS212indaUK]

I think MSL are all over petrol V8 AMGs as their preferred product territory, but recent forum feedback suggests they are much less inclined to look at the OM642. They used to no probs, but not so much now.

GAD will do the before and after dyno runs for the price they charge, and that is what you are interested in: the difference. I don't know if MSL do that as standard in the quoted price on a smokey 6 banger.

As for the technical what's best, GAD have posted lots of initial dyno runs on relatively new factory Mercs, and their dyno does seem to give numbers very very close to factory (not talking AMGs here), so I would be less worried about the accuracy (or over reading) of their dyno.

The remap will get what it can get. Might be less, might be top end of numbers. They won't pretend it's 315/700 If it's not on the day. If it's around the 315/700 and you're concerned that is too much, give them a call to discuss and I'm sure they can scale that back a bit for your requirments on the remap.

I don't understand the benefits of exhaust work in the OM642 i.e. 1-2 bhp marginal, or 10bhp+ worthwhile.

This has made me change my mind.

 

[Alps]

MSL will also do a before and after Dyno!

 

[TeddyRuxpin]

Read this: Wildly different figures/claims when remapping an E350 CDI | Performance Lounge

The truth is, nobody really knows. Pick one and go with it. They're both probably great. GAD seems a little more diesel-focussed, and MSL seem to post their minimum results, rather than the expected/maximum (for whatever reason). There are people on this forum that took their OM642 to MSL and got the same numbers as GAD. I don't know why they're modest in their figures. Big Fish Tuning does the diesel remapping remotely for MSL, at least they used to, whereas GAD do it themselves.

GAD is a little bit more expensive. GAD also will disable the EGR by default (i.e. unless you tell them not to).

I would pick based on which company's 'vibe' you prefer the most. Maybe have a quick word with them and go with your gut, because unless you take a car and get it remapped twice and measure each one on a third party rolling road, you won't ever know for sure (and nobody on here really knows either).

Both companies have seemingly given up on participating on MB forums (GAD was doing more posting on the other UK MB forum, but haven't posted much recently) - they simply don't need to post and seemingly don't offer many discounts for diesel owners these days. They're on instagram though. I think the M/AMG/Porsche posts are much more attractive for their businesses than 3L diesels...

 

[W1ghty]

GAD because they are closer to you . They are both professional companies that know their trade

 

[MrGreedy]

GAD will also improve the gearbox map as standard.

I don't know if that's included in the MSL price.

 

[Alps]

I think for what your after GAD may be the right choice, local in case of any tweaks to the map are needed.