NHS Loading

[oldguy57]

NHS is at its best in an emergency, it seems. However, for more run of the mill type things the system seems to grind to a crawl.

Yep saved my life twice for different near death incidents so I wouldn't be alive today to moan about the health service if it wasn't for the NHS.

SWMBO has severe osteoarthritis and basically needs new knees. She had as many cortisone jabs as was feasible and pestered her doctor until he referred her (she works in a surgery herself, so knows the trigger words etc.). Was emailed a link which had the option of our main hospital in a good few months time or a very local private hospital within 2 weeks! Attended, got a place to park (no charge) and was seen on time (as it turned out by the same consultant who would have done her main hospital consultation...) He had a chat and said we don't appear to have any recent x-rays (there are, but of course the systems do not talk to each other) so needed some doing. Our hearts sank as we envisioned another hospital appointment at some stage in the future then a wait for another consultation. Nope - told us to walk down the corridor by which time he had asked for said x-rays which were done straight away and within 10 minutes we were back in front of him! He said that if knees done by him at the private hospital it would be 5-6 months, but if at the main hospital (which is likely in case of complications connected with her Chrohn's) the wait would be 10-11 months, again done by him. Within just 24 hours she had a letter detailing the discussion with her follow-up appointment. The contrast is stark and I'm not convinced it is all down to finance - as much to do with more efficient process?

One amusing thing is that there is a separate waiting room now for private patients! Guess they must have objected to sitting with the NHS commoners. Probably have up-to-date Readers Digest too

Ironically when Ms Me needed an op last year, the NHS sent her to the local private hospital. Nice private room. Meal menu was 10 pages long, etc. Must have cost the NHS a fortune. No cost to us.

 

[m80]

Ironically when Ms Me needed an op last year, the NHS sent her to the local private hospital. Nice private room. Meal menu was 10 pages long, etc. Must have cost the NHS a fortune. No cost to us.

That's the discreet movement toward, dare I suggest deliberate, privatisation.

Cataract surgery, no problem that'll be Spamedica. Efficiency far better than NHS, no charge to the receiver.

I would guess there is more of this, and more to come. And I'm not sure it isn't the best answer to the reducing efficiency of the NHS.
But I fear the charging for such will creep in, till our memory of the NHS is in history.

 

[TC350]

Recently been suffering from severe lower back pain which has got worse. A month wait to see GP who referred me for physio. (GP surgery then ask for feedback on their service!) I had to email physio but heard nowt for 2 weeks. Reminded them and then got a "consultation" by what was obviously an NHS bot. 2 weeks later get response "we will contact you shortly". 2 weeks later get an appointment in 2 months time. So basically 20 weeks without knowing what is wrong or any attempt to put it right.

Hoping that this doesn't turn into a group of old guys down the pub exchanging health (or lack of) stories.

I'd been suffering with severe lower back pains for many years, but typically of our gender done nothing about it. Then about five years ago I ignored the pain when cutting one of our hedges. Mistake. My body said "If you're going to ignore pain I'll switch off all sensors." Bowel control was one of the things switched off! Within days of contacting my GP I received a letter with an appointment to see a specialist. Within a fortnight of the shitsaster a very nice young lady was interviewing me at a clinic in order to get to the bottom (sorry) of the issue. After talking with colleagues she got on the phone to the City Hospital and made an appointment for me to have an X-ray, which was done that afternoon. About a week later I was back at the clinic where a physio looked me up and down from different angles whilst I was in just my skivvies. He told me that my stance was the source of my problem, with my muscles unable to support my spine correctly. He showed me a few exercises and sent me on my way. Those exercises worked! From time to time I let the routine lapse, and pay the penalty.

As has been said before, if the NHS think that there may be an emergency they can and will act quickly.

 

[Dryce]

But I fear the charging for such will creep in, till our memory of the NHS is in history.

It effectively is for cataract surgery.

Go through NHS .... wait ... wait .... wait.

Go privately - get it done in a few weeks. And it may even be the same doctor who would have done it (eventually) under NHS.

 

[m80]

It effectively is for cataract surgery.

Go through NHS .... wait ... wait .... wait.

Go privately - get it done in a few weeks. And it may even be the same doctor who would have done it (eventually) under NHS.

My experience was an eye test at Specsavers.
Diagnosed with cataract.
2 days till a phone call to arrange for a Spamedica examination.
Less than 4 weeks for 1st lens replacement.

Astoundingly impressive by NHS comparisons,
didn't pay for anything, even the Specsavers 1st or later examination's.

The 2nd replacement took longer, cos Buxton got snowed in. It's difficult to blame them, or the NHS, for that.

And now I can sing like Stevie Wonder, cos I'm blind.
Sorry that last bit was a v poor attempt at Guinness humour.

 

[markjay]

It effectively is for cataract surgery.

Go through NHS .... wait ... wait .... wait.

Go privately - get it done in a few weeks. And it may even be the same doctor who would have done it (eventually) under NHS.

That's the paradoxical bit.

The doctor who would do it privately is likely to be a senior NHS consultant, who hasn't done these operations for the NHS for years, instead his current role is to be on standby and assist junior doctors - who routinly carry these operations - when they get into difficulties.

So the question is whether a patient will be better-off with a consultant who only carries-out private operations these days, say twice a month, or with a less-senior doctor who still does 5 or 6 cataracts a day.

 

[Piff]

My dad worked as a mental health nurse for NHS from his mid 30’s until he was retired early due to reorganisation of mental health services - care in the community & all that.
In his final years he was the male equivalent of a matron & switched his shifts to night to maximise his pension.
In his final years he complained that NHS money was being wasted on employing more & more managers (who were ineffective) rather than nurses.
Seems to me that the whole NHS needs a big reorganisation by “commercial” brains to reduce wastage & better manage employees time. Much expensive equipment seems to be only used 9 to 5 where it could be used 24 hours a day to reduce waiting lists

 

[Darrell]

Go through NHS .... wait ... wait .... wait.

Go privately - get it done in a few weeks. And it may even be the same doctor who would have done it (eventually) under NHS.

When my son was born it became evident he needed a couple of operations to correct his wonky feet.

We saw a NHS specialist, met with the surgeon etc and was told we might have to wait up to 3 years!!

Going private was mentioned which at the time was an alien concept to our family. The obvious advantage (their words) was it could be done at 6 months so it wouldn’t impeded him learning to walk. Price was around £17,000 so we went for it.

It was done at Stanmore Orthopaedic with the same specialist and the same surgeon. Make of that what you want.

Forgot to add that this was 1999 and we’d had a Labour govt in for 2.5 years.

 

[AnnasMerc83]

Would it help if Doctors started working a five day week again, instead of the current four or three days a week? (They swerve full time partly because they don't want to lose half the dosh to higher rate tax and NI)
.

This is really saddening to read and so far from the truth.

As someone who has many GP (mostly in training) friends and from personal experience working the NHS but from a dental side (which I left for exactly the following reason)… you have no idea how much it takes out of you seeing 40-50 people a day, like a production line, with 30% of them being rude/aggressive towards something you have zero control over.

It’s impossible to work in a broken system. There’s a reason they all leave for Aus or, even more sadly, commit suicide. I know of 3 drs who took their own lives in the last year as they couldn’t cope.

In my Doctors surgery not one of the Doctors is a full time practitioner, they all only work two or three days a week.

There’s usually a reason people won’t do a particular job full time.
Also most GPs will do shifts in hospital or other community locations on their days ‘off’. It’s less time off and more variability within the job.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

This is really saddening to read and so far from the truth.

As someone who has many GP (mostly in training) friends and from personal experience working the NHS but from a dental side (which I left for exactly the following reason)… you have no idea how much it takes out of you seeing 40-50 people a day, like a production line, with 30% of them being rude/aggressive towards something you have zero control over.

It’s impossible to work in a broken system. There’s a reason they all leave for Aus or, even more sadly, commit suicide. I know of 3 drs who took their own lives in the last year as they couldn’t cope.



There’s usually a reason people won’t do a particular job full time.
Also most GPs will do shifts in hospital or other community locations on their days ‘off’. It’s less time off and more variability within the job.

"They all leave for Oz?" Not in SW London. They're running the same comfy place that they've been in for more than a decade, and no-one works more than a 4 day week at my GP surgery. As for Consultants, again, I know consultants in Hearts, Oncology, Minds, and Eyes who are happily doing their time at the NHS, and then popping out for a spot of private, or research, childcare or golf. Employment for life - steady employment unrecognisable to professionals from any other sector.

Can we blame people for moving to Australia now that the border is more open than it's ever been? Certainly there are younger graduates from all disciplines heading out to Oz now that the visa situation has loosened up. Sunshine's great but, as any Australian will tell you, the cost of living isn't as easy as it first appears - being at the end of the world everything is more expensive, and more limited in choice than in Europe. and travel is very expensive. Waving farewell to Mum, Dad, family and friends is easy to discuss, but it's not as simple to actually deliver.

Of course the Australian system will be better than the NHS. It's mixed private and public, with accountable doctors and hospitals. Exactly the kind of system that so many doctors have worked to reject in the UK

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It’s impossible to work in a broken system. There’s a reason they all leave for Aus or, even more sadly, commit suicide. I know of 3 drs who took their own lives in the last year as they couldn’t cope.

Medical suicide? It's an eternal feature of the trade. Doctors bury their mistakes, but those mistakes don't stay buried. It affects doctors, nurses, spouses and their wider families. It's a feature of the trade and the obsessive, driven self-centred people who choose to pursue it.

All well documented in the States, Europe, and Australia. Here's an Australian article about a century of suicide amongst doctors in Oz.

Medical suicide in Australia: 100 years of physician suicide: call for action - InSight+

 

[clk320x]

no-one works more than a 4 day week at my GP surgery. As for Consultants, again, I know consultants in Hearts, Oncology, Minds, and Eyes who are happily doing their time at the NHS, and then popping out for a spot of private, or research, childcare or golf.

So what? The NHS doesn’t pay enough so people need to do work elsewhere to make up for it…

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

So what? The NHS doesn’t pay enough so people need to do work elsewhere to make up for it…

Agreed, it's tough for a 30 year old on £90k, so it is tempting to pick up private sector work as soon as she can. And tempting for a new parent to just work four days rather than five.

Lawyers, Accountants, Engineers and Accountants just wonder what kind of system it is that guarantees a job for life, but ignores that people are choosing to work four days rather than five because they don't want to pay 66% income tax, National Insurance and Student loan repayments on marginal income at the £100k level. It's just something that a lawyer or Engineer could never do. They’d be fired or edged out.

 

[clk320x]

Agreed, it's tough for a 30 year old on £90k, so it is tempting to pick up private sector work as soon as she can. And tempting for a new parent to just work four days rather than five.

Lawyers, Accountants, Engineers and Accountants just wonder what kind of system it is that guarantees a job for life, but ignores that people are choosing to work four days rather than five because they don't want to pay 66% income tax, National Insurance and Student loan repayments on marginal income at the £100k level. It's just something that a lawyer or Engineer could never do. They’d be fired or edged out.

With respect being a GP is hardly the easy straightforward job that the public seem to think it is - mainly due to the limitations of the NHS system. Your figures don’t make sense to me either, a salaried NHS GP working 3 days a week will not be making £100k.

In this country doctors (and other professionals I must add) have been undervalued monetarily for years by the NHS. If things don’t change, more and more will just emigrate to other countries which do value the profession.

I also don’t think it’s fair to compare to industries such as Law.

I’m not interested in continuing this conversation further, not because of you but because the whole topic is one that annoys me.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

With respect being a GP is hardly the easy straightforward job that the public seem to think it is - mainly due to the limitations of the NHS system. Your figures don’t make sense to me either, a salaried NHS GP working 3 days a week will not be making £100k.

In this country doctors (and other professionals I must add) have been undervalued monetarily for years by the NHS. If things don’t change, more and more will just emigrate to other countries which do value the profession.

I also don’t think it’s fair to compare to industries such as Law.

I’m not interested in continuing this conversation further, not because of you but because the whole topic is one that annoys me.

You’re deliberately misquoting my comment.

Doctors are refusing to pay the marginal tax, NI and student loan repayments at the 66% level that come from working five days a week, so they are opting OUT of working that fifth or even fourth day.

They are choosing not to work a full five day week, in a way that’s unrecognisable to 30 year olds, and older, in other professional careers.

If an accountant, lawyer, or engineer said “it’s not worth my while to work that fifth day each week,” they would be edged out of employment, status awards and promotion.

It’s laughable and in plain sight in hospitals and GP clinics.

Congratulations on being able to emigrate to English speaking countries like Australia and the USA, after receiving a quarter of a million pounds worth of medical training in the UK. Let’s see how many doctors choose to leave their families behind to move to the private health system of the America, where the yachts are more affordable, but where doctors can’t hide behind the NHS when they bury the mistakes each year.

We know doctors don’t want to pay the income tax, national insurance and student loan repayments that the rest of us do. That’s why they’re demanding a 35% increase in income. Just don’t expect sympathy from people who do pay taxes and who do work not only five day weeks but also long hours because that’s what genuine professionals do.

 

[clk320x]

You’re deliberately misquoting my comment.

Doctors are refusing to pay the marginal tax, NI and student loan repayments at the 66% level that come from working five days a week, so they are opting OUT of working that fifth or even fourth day.

They are choosing not to work a full five day week, in a way that’s unrecognisable to 30 year olds, and older, in other professional careers.

If an accountant, lawyer, or engineer said “it’s not worth my while to work that fifth day each week,” they would be edged out of employment, status awards and promotion.

It’s laughable and in plain sight in hospitals and GP clinics.

Congratulations on being able to emigrate to English speaking countries like Australia and the USA, after receiving a quarter of a million pounds worth of medical training in the UK. Let’s see how many doctors choose to leave their families behind to move to the private health system of the America, where the yachts are more affordable, but where doctors can’t hide behind the NHS when they bury the mistakes each year.

We know doctors don’t want to pay the income tax, national insurance and student loan repayments that the rest of us do. That’s why they’re demanding a 35% increase in income. Just don’t expect sympathy from people who do pay taxes and who do work not only five day weeks but also long hours because that’s what genuine professionals do.

You must have missed the last part of my post. I didn’t even bother reading this. There will be others who will though - again nothing personal I just don’t want to continue the conversation.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

You must have missed the last part of my post. I didn’t even bother reading this.

Yes, we saw you said that you wouldn’t reply.

Hope you had a good day, on strike for a 35% salary increase.

Did you go to the cricket or the golf?

 

[clk320x]

Yes, we saw you said that you wouldn’t reply.

Hope you had a good day, on strike for a 35% salary increase.

Did you go to the cricket or the golf?

When did I say I wouldn’t reply? I said I’m not interested in continuing the conversation… a cue for you to not bother responding to me but that didn’t stop you.

P.S. I had a very good day thanks.

 

[D2028]

I think that anyone who dedicates themselves to helping others has the right to choose when and where to work. Politicians in both houses of parliament have no qualms about when and where they "work"

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I think that anyone who dedicates themselves to helping others has the right to choose when and where to work. Politicians in both houses of parliament have no qualms about when and where they "work"

Exactly. An MP, average age 52, is on £82,000 a year, after taking typically risking eight years - unpaid - to get that job, which has no job security, and has an average length of no more than seven years.

But how is an MP, who typically works 5-6 days a week, comparable to a GP on nearly twice that level of income at the same age, who works four days a week, and who is anxious that her million pound pension pot now makes it inappropriate to her work a more than 150 days a year?

If junior and senior doctors can work professional hours across Europe, why do British medics show up less often to work for the NHS ? We know that British lead times to see medics are worse than Europe, that NHS facilities are persistently empty after 5pm and from Friday to Sunday, and that medics are doggedly slow to recruit to fill available vacancies. It’s not as if there isn’t work to do.

It’s astonishing arrogance that people who say that they are turning up to “help people,” are demanding a 35% salary increase in 2023 on an extraordinarily well career with absurd job security that typically lasts four decades and ends in comfortable retirement envied by most other professionals.