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[D2028]

I think you misunderstood me, I was in no way defending politicians , quite the opposite. I totally disagree with the way that NHS staff are being vilified by the Tories. Bear in mind that this "divide and rule" philosophy can be applied to any sector that doesn't comply with government wishes . We should all be careful what we wish for.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I think you misunderstood me, I was in no way defending politicians , quite the opposite. I totally disagree with the way that NHS staff are being vilified by the Tories. Bear in mind that this "divide and rule" philosophy can be applied to any sector that doesn't comply with government wishes . We should all be careful what we wish for.

What makes you think that all NHS patients are Tories?

The people laughing at the demand for a 35% pay claim by Doctors earning four times the average wage, or ten times the state pension, are just people who work for a living five days a week and who can't get to see a British GP let alone a Specialist.

Northern Ireland's health service is in even worse shape that England, and they don't have any Tories to shake their heads at that local mess. Ditto Scotland.

 

[D2028]

Where did I say that I assumed all NHS patients were Tories?
I am also fully aware of all regions of the UK experiencing problems with funding and running the NHS. The Northern Ireland wing of the Tories(DUP) have as many questions to answer.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Where did I say that I assumed all NHS patients were Tories?
I am also fully aware of all regions of the UK experiencing problems with funding and running the NHS. The Northern Ireland wing of the Tories(DUP) have as many questions to answer.

Where you said that “ NHS staff are being vilified by the Tories.”

The criticism of the 35% salary demand by Consultants on six figure salaries is broad and wide. It comes from Labour voters looking at despair at the greed by GP’s and Specialists who, having achieved their million pound pension pot tax break have turned their guns onto salary.

 

[D2028]

I was referring to Tory politicians, I normally attribute them with a capital T , tory voters I use a lower case “t”, along the lines of small c conservatives.
Anyway , I have expressed my personal opinion and don’t wish to offend anyone on here so I will withdraw from this discussion as a precaution.

 

[ChrisEdu]

Apparently, according to a quick bit of research, politicians have seen their pay drop by 0.6%, adjusted for inflation, over the last decade. I doubt many other public sector employees have enjoyed such a small drop in real-terms pay.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Apparently, according to a quick bit of research, politicians have seen their pay drop by 0.6%, adjusted for inflation, over the last decade. I doubt many other public sector employees have enjoyed such a small drop in real-terms pay.

Remind us, how many public sector employees spend eight years at their own (six figure) expense, trying to get employed, at odds of comfortably less than 10-1, to try to become an MP in their fifties, on a salary of £82,000 a year, for the pleasure of working in London, while their families live many hours away in the provinces?

Bear in mind that public sector employees usually get guaranteed employment for decades, if not life, with a pension that would make most private sector / self-employed wage slaves cry.

Teachers are great examples with an unbelievable annual 23% tax-free employer contribution to their pension, every year of their career. Does your employer give you nearly an extra quarter of your salary tax-free every year from the day you start work ?

 

[ChrisEdu]

Do MPs need a degree or doctorate? No.
However, many jobs in the public sector require at least a bachelors degree, paid for by the person doing it, so spending 3 years, at least, to achieve the required qualifications with no guarantee of a job at the end of it.

Your argument about MPs is not really the full picture, as many will have had well paid jobs before entering politics. There are also career politicians, who have never held a 'normal' job. Many politicians will easily land jobs in industry once their nose is out of the Westminster trough, making use of contacts made during their time in office.

Politicians also get very generous pensions, expenses, subsidised food, etc... so not quite the sob story you're trying to paint. As far as I know, nobody else in the public sector gets all these extras, which equate to quite a substantial package beyond their basic pay.

Furthermore, last time I checked, to become a doctor or dentist takes a minimum of 5 years, self-funded study, having passed various stringent requirements to just get a place at university. For anyone wanting career progression, there are many more years of study required.

Ultimately, everyone makes their own choice as to what direction they take in the world of work. Be it self-employed, balancing risks and rewards, employee to somebody else, again balancing the costs and rewards. However, when people see those in power lecturing self-restraint, not just politicians, whilst ignoring the same advice and decisions dished out to others. It is this hypocrisy and lack of parity that riles people.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Do MPs need a degree or doctorate? No.
However, many jobs in the public sector require at least a bachelors degree, paid for by the person doing it, so spending 3 years, at least, to achieve the required qualifications with no guarantee of a job at the end of it.

Your argument about MPs is not really the full picture, as many will have had well paid jobs before entering politics. There are also career politicians, who have never held a 'normal' job. Many politicians will easily land jobs in industry once their nose is out of the Westminster trough, making use of contacts made during their time in office.

Politicians also get very generous pensions, expenses, subsidised food, etc... so not quite the sob story you're trying to paint. As far as I know, nobody else in the public sector gets all these extras, which equate to quite a substantial package beyond their basic pay.

Furthermore, last time I checked, to become a doctor or dentist takes a minimum of 5 years, self-funded study, having passed various stringent requirements to just get a place at university. For anyone wanting career progression, there are many more years of study required.

Ultimately, everyone makes their own choice as to what direction they take in the world of work. Be it self-employed, balancing risks and rewards, employee to somebody else, again balancing the costs and rewards. However, when people see those in power lecturing self-restraint, not just politicians, whilst ignoring the same advice and decisions dished out to others. It is this hypocrisy and lack of parity that riles people.

You started off by saying: "I doubt many other public sector employees have enjoyed such a small drop in real-terms pay." I challenged the comparison with public sector employees.

What makes you think that people can become MP's in this day and age without a degree? Virtually all need a degree now, although obviously Labour politicians like Angela Rayner do come through with no real education, but she's very much an exception.

NHS Consultants have a rock solid six figure income for a 35 hour week over a career lasting three decades. That's a lifetime income of several million (in 2023 pounds) , on top of which you can add the income that they take from private practice outside their NHS contract.

How many professionals can lay claim job security and lifetime earnings like that? Not accountants, lawyers, architects, IT directors, or even salesmen.

MP's pension? They contribute 13.75 % of their salary (yes, their pre-tax income) each year, to get 1/40th of their final salary as pension. The average tenure of an MP is eight years, so she will pay 13,75% of her salary each year to get a £16k occupational pension on retirement.

Public service pension: Every teacher gets an extra 23% of her salary paid into her pension pot for retirement. That doesn't come out of her annual salary, that's in addition to her salary.

No-one in their right mind chooses to become a politician for the money. It's a vanity choice. This is not French, Italian or American politics. Blair's family made a multimillion fortune from his tenure, but he's pretty unique in modern British politics. Like investing in wine, the way to make a small fortune in politics is to start with a large fortune.

 

[clk320x]

Furthermore, last time I checked, to become a doctor or dentist takes a minimum of 5 years, self-funded study, having passed various stringent requirements to just get a place at university. For anyone wanting career progression, there are many more years of study required.

spot on…

 

[ChrisEdu]

You started off by saying: "I doubt many other public sector employees have enjoyed such a small drop in real-terms pay." I challenged the comparison with public sector employees.

What makes you think that people can become MP's in this day and age without a degree? Virtually all need a degree now, although obviously Labour politicians like Angela Rayner do come through with no real education, but she's very much an exception.

NHS Consultants have a rock solid six figure income for a 35 hour week over a career lasting three decades. That's a lifetime income of several million (in 2023 pounds) , on top of which you can add the income that they take from private practice outside their NHS contract.

How many professionals can lay claim job security and lifetime earnings like that? Not accountants, lawyers, architects, IT directors, or even salesmen.

MP's pension? They contribute 13.75 % of their salary (yes, their pre-tax income) each year, to get 1/40th of their final salary as pension. The average tenure of an MP is eight years, so she will pay 13,75% of her salary each year to get a £16k occupational pension on retirement.

Public service pension: Every teacher gets an extra 23% of her salary paid into her pension pot for retirement. That doesn't come out of her annual salary, that's in addition to her salary.

No-one in their right mind chooses to become a politician for the money. It's a vanity choice. This is not French, Italian or American politics. Blair's family made a multimillion fortune from his tenure, but he's pretty unique in modern British politics. Like investing in wine, the way to make a small fortune in politics is to start with a large fortune.

Job security is normally associated with the levels of education and skill required to perform the job, alongside the size of the workforce capable of doing it.

Therefore plenty of people are capable of being an MP, but far fewer a medic. MPs have no formal educational requirements, regardless of what you might wish to suggest. To be a surgeon, you have to be highly educated and have a wealth of experience.

No one in their right mind chooses to become a teacher, nurse, council cleaner, etc.. for the money either. So, again, I'm really not sure what your point is regarding the choice to become an MP. Many people don't base the career choice on the financial rewards available, but through a sense of vocation or service, just like many in politics.

You seem to have a real bee in your bonnet about consultants in the NHS. Personally, considering their level of expertise and responsibility, I think they're more than deserving of what they earn.

Why not turn your attention to, for example, footballers? No qualifications required. Kick a ball on a pitch and do some training and get paid a fortune, potentially. What about actors? Pop singers? Etc... There are plenty of people earning a lot more than doctors. There a lots of highly paid people in the civil service. What about the BBC?

You bang on about pensions, but again, you make your choices and reap the rewards. Oh, and teachers' pensions were forcibly changed aseveral years ago, along with increasing the contributions paid in by teachers. Why not discuss police pensions? They are generous and have a younger retirement age?

 

[Dryce]

No one in their right mind chooses to become a teacher, nurse, council cleaner, etc.. for the money either. S

Actually they do.

I suspect most people end up doing a job 'for the money'.

With doctors and consultants it requires a higher commitment as you need to get your medical degree and then undertake more study and training and exams afterwards. You get to be a consultant after maybe 15 years and it doesn't just happen. You commit a lot of time and inconvenience to getting there - which may be offset by job satisfaction. You get paid more - and in my view they operate a bit like a guild. But the sacrifices en route are greater.

The teachers and nurses I know as friends and who I've worked with in the past tend to always feel they are hard done by. I would say there are some downsides to it as an occupation. But those who lasted seem to think they haven't done well but the actual reality is that comparing their relative job security, holidays, sickness benefits, and pension - they do rather well compared with the majority.

A colleague who had a private pension that got badly damaged was advised a few years ago that he might seriously consider teaching or nursing.

 

[Dryce]

Remind us, how many public sector employees spend eight years at their own (six figure) expense, trying to get employed, at odds of comfortably less than 10-1, to try to become an MP in their fifties, on a salary of £82,000 a year, for the pleasure of working in London, while their families live many hours away in the provinces?

And they will be castigated by union leaders who would protect the 9-5 aspect of their members yet expect senior MPs to not break holidays to come back to work.

 

[Dryce]

Public service pension: Every teacher gets an extra 23% of her salary paid into her pension pot for retirement. That doesn't come out of her annual salary, that's in addition to her salary.

But this is never ever ever to be treated as included in their remuneration.

SWMBO is on a public sector pension. Mine is private. She's now very very aware of how hard I have to pedal to try and match her pension income statements. I've become very aware now that she will effectively earn substantially more than me over her lifetime - despite the fact I had a higher stated salary over the majority of our careers.

Her job security and protections have been higher in service.

I feel like a mug.

It doesn't help that her colleagues will frequently complain about how hard done by they are and that how much better they could do in the private sector.

Now it's not a panacea for everyone in public sector. It depends on what you do and opportunity. I know of people how get stick in low grades without opportunity - and the pay isn't high. But for 'professional' public sector the job security and conditions are lifetime earnings are typically very very very good.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Job security is normally associated with the levels of education and skill required to perform the job, alongside the size of the workforce capable of doing it.

Therefore plenty of people are capable of being an MP, but far fewer a medic. MPs have no formal educational requirements, regardless of what you might wish to suggest. To be a surgeon, you have to be highly educated and have a wealth of experience.

No one in their right mind chooses to become a teacher, nurse, council cleaner, etc.. for the money either. So, again, I'm really not sure what your point is regarding the choice to become an MP. Many people don't base the career choice on the financial rewards available, but through a sense of vocation or service, just like many in politics.

You seem to have a real bee in your bonnet about consultants in the NHS. Personally, considering their level of expertise and responsibility, I think they're more than deserving of what they earn.

Why not turn your attention to, for example, footballers? No qualifications required. Kick a ball on a pitch and do some training and get paid a fortune, potentially. What about actors? Pop singers? Etc... There are plenty of people earning a lot more than doctors. There a lots of highly paid people in the civil service. What about the BBC?

You bang on about pensions, but again, you make your choices and reap the rewards. Oh, and teachers' pensions were forcibly changed aseveral years ago, along with increasing the contributions paid in by teachers. Why not discuss police pensions? They are generous and have a younger retirement age?

I mention senior doctors, not surgeons, because they are the 60,000 very well paid people striking this weekend with a demand for a 35% increase. A salary increase significantly greater than the average salary in the UK.

As we all know surgeons are but a small subset of consultants.

They’re doing this less than a year after receiving a tax concession that enables your GP to keep building her tax free pension beyond one million pounds.

Consultants continue to be the only profession we know that counts her working week as 35 hours, beyond which she does not need to work, and for which she must be paid extra if she works beyond those 35 hours.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Job security is normally associated with the levels of education and skill required to perform the job, alongside the size of the workforce capable of doing it.

Therefore plenty of people are capable of being an MP, but far fewer a medic. MPs have no formal educational requirements, regardless of what you might wish to suggest. To be a surgeon, you have to be highly educated and have a wealth of experience.

No one in their right mind chooses to become a teacher, nurse, council cleaner, etc.. for the money either. So, again, I'm really not sure what your point is regarding the choice to become an MP. Many people don't base the career choice on the financial rewards available, but through a sense of vocation or service, just like many in politics.

You seem to have a real bee in your bonnet about consultants in the NHS. Personally, considering their level of expertise and responsibility, I think they're more than deserving of what they earn.

Why not turn your attention to, for example, footballers? No qualifications required. Kick a ball on a pitch and do some training and get paid a fortune, potentially. What about actors? Pop singers? Etc... There are plenty of people earning a lot more than doctors. There a lots of highly paid people in the civil service. What about the BBC?

You bang on about pensions, but again, you make your choices and reap the rewards. Oh, and teachers' pensions were forcibly changed aseveral years ago, along with increasing the contributions paid in by teachers. Why not discuss police pensions? They are generous and have a younger retirement age?

I mention teachers’ pensions because teachers pension are ridiculously enormous and unacknowledged.

Teachers complain about their headline earnings as they head off into their month long summer holiday this weekend, yet get and extra 23% of salary paid tax-free into pension every year that they work. That’s an astonishing number over a 30-40 year period, unparalleled in any other employment.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Does it matter that the medics in the NHS are already paid more than medics across Europe, with the exception of those in Switzerland and Belgium where they don’t train their own staff? That’s before this weekend’s demand for a third more lolly.

I’d posit that it does because we can already see the NHS diverting money from efficiency, technology and facilities into income, and we can see appalling working practices.

The French, Italians and Spanish do pay their medics less, and their health systems see and treat patients more quickly in better quality hospitals and clinics, with better equipment. Why shouldn’t we ask the same of our medics?

It takes an age to get an appointment, an age to get tests, and an age to be seen by a specialist and an age to be treated. Anyone who has lived or worked outside the UK knows that NHS bureaucracy is laughable.

I chuckle every time I receive a typed letter to myself and my GP from my local hospital consultant, six to eight weeks after an appointment, summarising what happened. That’s an incompetence unparalleled in any British other organisation.

 

[Gollom]

I do smile wryly when I read about NHS wage increases and pensions. My wife is NHS but as an Admin manager in a medium sized surgery - this year the doctors proudly gave their staff as much as a 2.1% increase! (following a 0% rise last year - we reckon she is down by well over 15% in real terms) We have been looking at her pension and it is not brilliant at all even though she is still on the old style one with over 23 years. Loves working there and agrees the job security is excellent especially as she has Chrohn's so taken more time off than she would like. Ah well, at least I can get fast doctor's appointments if needed........

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I do smile wryly when I read about NHS wage increases and pensions. My wife is NHS but as an Admin manager in a medium sized surgery - this year the doctors proudly gave their staff as much as a 2.1% increase! (following a 0% rise last year - we reckon she is down by well over 15% in real terms) We have been looking at her pension and it is not brilliant at all even though she is still on the old style one with over 23 years. Loves working there and agrees the job security is excellent especially as she has Chrohn's so taken more time off than she would like. Ah well, at least I can get fast doctor's appointments if needed........

Amen. I know several in that same situation.
My note was primarily about those GP partners demanding an extra £50k a year in one hit to cover Freya and Wolf’s school fees which have gone up SO much !

 

[ChrisEdu]

Let's face it, surely nobody would serioudly expect to get a 35% pay rise, but by going in big you have room to come down.

People moan about the rewards associated with the various professions, yet don't seem willing to admit they have as much free choice in their career choice as the next person.

If you don't like your lot in life, or have a grievance against people in another career, do something positive about changing things, rather than griping on. What positive outcomes does that achieve?

We all hear the stories of my this that or the other is a nurse/teacher/doctor etc... and does this that and the other. So what!? We all know teacher work 9-3 and get 13 weeks holiday and it's a job as easy as falling over, yet people aren't rushing to join the profession.

BTW, unlike most other public sector jobs, teachers get no overtime so effectively work many hours for free ( or maybe, just maybe, the uncomfortable truth is that the pension is designed to at least help offset this imbalance?) But as I said, if you feel so hard done by, why not become a part of the profession you look at with such disdain?

Where things get sh!tty is when contracts are arbitrarily change by employers. Nobody else generally has the power to rip up an agreement and replace it with something deleterious. However, that's all to common in employment, both public and private sector.

Self-employed people bemoan those employed, whilst not acknowledging their benefits of being self-employed. Those in employment bemoan the freedoms of those that are self-employed. The public and private sectors moan about each other. And so it goes, on and on. Spot the pattern?

We're all hard done by and crying into our milk. Yet, we all have agency in our choices. Yes, we might sometimes make unwise choices, but they are our choices. If you choose to do X and then moan about those doing Y, that's your problem. You could have chosen a different path.

Furthermore, everybody constructs their own narrative in life. No two people will experience the same things exactly the same. The same is true in the world of work.

So stories about what one person experiences in a certain role don't really hold much value. Sure you might be able to relate something from their perspective, or your perspective, but that's still an isolated reference point. You have no way of being able to understand the perspectives of every person.

Anyhow, much like other contributors, I feel that this thread is becoming rather pointless and circular. Therefore, I shall no longer take part, as it seems somewhat futile. As I said, you make your choices in life and reap the consequences. Banging on about how someone else is doing better/worse than you feel they should doesn't achieve anything positive, so what's the point!?