Subaru Legacy

[Piff]

I left the MB ownership last spring with bad experience with rusty E-class and main dealers inability/willingness to solve the problems. Bought an Audi A6 - a bit bland but satisfactory! (Also happened to sell A-class at the same time & changed to a Golf Cabriolet)

Moved house last year also, now at the top of a steep hill and with a very steep drive. 3 - 4 days last winter was unable to get up the road, yet alone the drive due to snow/ice.

Not realy into big off road cars like ML, etc. MB UK don't import 4-matic to this country.

Seem to be left with the following options:
Audi A4 quattro
Audi A6 quattro
Subaru Legacy 2.0 or 2.5

Does anyone have any experience of Subaru's? Comments would be appreciated.

 

[sym]

Subarus are great cars, but they don't make a diesel, so that was them crossed off my most recent short list ! Very capable as 4WD ... I used a 'B' reg one about 13 years ago when I was studying up north ... when it really snowed, I was the only student that was able to use the car !

Bodywork was terrible ... rusted to pieces (hope they have improved since then) but the mechanicals were very reliable !

S.

 

[grober]

Last year Subaru rationalised its model lineup and reduced its model choice.Subaru dont do a 2.5 engine now except in the OUTBACK. You can now only get an uprated 2 litre twin overhead cam 4 cylinder in the saloon /estate with 165bhp at 6,800 187nm at 3200rpm. The 3 litre 6 cylinder engine continues 245bhp at 6600 rpm 297nm at 4200rpm but in Spec B manual/auto form only. Remember also that that you get different 4WD transmissions depending on engine size and auto/manual gearbox. they dont tell you that clearly in the brochure. See my post here http://mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=21885&highlight=4matic
The future for Subaru looks brighter now since General Motors have sold their interest to Toyota. Toyota want Subaru's 4wd expertise and Toyota will help develop a hybrid while Subaru are developing a diesel engine rumoured late next year 2007. There have been worrying reports of engine problems on earlier models with similar engines - piston slap and head gaskets http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/index.php?url=/carbycar/index.htm
but dont know about the latest models reliability.The estates seem to hold their value but the saloons depreciate quite heavily. They tend to use petrol and servicing costs are high. I have driven a 3 litre spec B auto recently and its a well finished, very fast, good handling car. Audi offer a much wider range of engines/ transmission options but this is reduced somewhat if you want a Quattro version. The clincher to me is the availability of the diesel engined models in the Audi range. The audi is a better economic proposition with diesels and better depreciation. The Subaru is probably a better drivers car which is to be expected with its rally motor sport background. this is definitely a situation where you need to drive several examples of both model ranges to see what your personal preferences are.

 

[Piff]

Hi Graeme

I have read through your thread on 4-matics (I even have a post & a vote in there myself!). Most informative.
When changing my car I have a £20,000 budget - not rigid but self imposed.
This means Audi's around 3 - 4 years old and Subaru's up to 1 year old. I appreciate the depreciation on the Subaru's will be greater (newer car + higher general depreciation).
Going for used Subaru's means a choice of the 2.5 or 2.0 engine. I always chose an auto & estate. According to manufacturers info the fuel economy for both engines is similar.
My current Audi A6 (1.9TDi multitronic) is supposed to achieve an average of high 40's mpg. I can only get low to mid 30's mpg. Fuel economy is high on my requirements list which is why I have excluded the ML270CDi.
I am also cautious of Audi's claims for their vehicles mpg with my current car experience.
Perhaps I am too tight, as my annual mileage in this car is only around 8,000.
Many of my journeys are 4 to 10 miles which does not aid fuel economy. With this relatively low mileage I should perhaps consider depreciation above mpg and enjoyment above both of these!

A further car under consideration, which I forgot to mention before, is the Volvo XC70 D5 SE geartronic - do you have any knowledge of this car?
Again, with my budget I would be probably looking around 3 years old.

 

[jgevers]

Hi,

I have owned Subarus since 1994. I still have my first Legacy Turbo, now at 240K miles, still MOTed and used daily in the fields.
All my Subarus have been very reliable including my play car at the moment, Sti version7.
I am looking at a Legacy 3.0 auto estate at the moment. I test drove one about a month ago and I was very impressed. Non of the poncy feeling you get with the new MBs. I think it is a good looking car that brings no status connotations with it. Very good for making B road progress up this part of the country, where the German cars just seem to bottom out over the many undulations.

The best way to buy a Subaru at the moment is through European (not Japanese) import.This keeps all the normal UK spec and warranties (you'll probably not need them) in place. Savings of about 25-30% are to be had.

As your mileage is so low, the savings on fuel would be quite small if you go for a diesel. With a lot of faults starting to appear on common rail diesel engines, I would go for petrol every time.

Go and test drive a Legacy, you'll like it!

Cheers

 

[grober]

Test drive one.

Sorry Piff I should have remembered your post in the 4matic thread. The 3 litre auto estate has the best autotransmission setup with the sporty bias towards rearwheel drive with the bonus of Subarus vehicle dynamic system similar to Mercedes ETS. The 2 and 2.5 litre autos have a set up which is primarily front wheel drive 90/10 until slippage occurs. still a good drive tho! The later versions of the H6 3 litre engine have chain drive camshafts which eliminates the expensive timing belt change necessary on the belt drive 4 cylinder units and long life plugs 60k as I remember. They do have a reputation for using fuel tho the autos have a much lower rear axle ratio ( higher geared) than the manual spec B You should be able to pick up a good pre spec B 3.0R or 3.0 Rn for sub £15k second hand. Some models languished in compounds in the UK for months so may be older than their reg year suggest. If you look at the vin plate no starting JF----- the year of manufacture no is the 10th CHARACTER. 4-2004, 5-2005, 6-2006.
jgevers knows his stuff go for a test drive you will be smiling at the end!

edit:- dont know much about the volvo xc70 d5 geartronic but with the jacked up suspension its equivalent for comparison purposes would be probably be a subaru legacy outback or the audi allroad. It has the Haldex type transmission similar to the subaru 2/2.5 litre autos with the front wheel bias until slippage occurs. Being a Volvo its probably pretty robust with good safety features and would have an enormous carrying capacity. Not such a sporty drive but if you got you hands on a R type estate thats a Q car and a half.

 

[Piff]

Hi,

I have owned Subarus since 1994. I still have my first Legacy Turbo, now at 240K miles, still MOTed and used daily in the fields.
All my Subarus have been very reliable including my play car at the moment, Sti version7.
I am looking at a Legacy 3.0 auto estate at the moment. I test drove one about a month ago and I was very impressed. Non of the poncy feeling you get with the new MBs. I think it is a good looking car that brings no status connotations with it. Very good for making B road progress up this part of the country, where the German cars just seem to bottom out over the many undulations.

The best way to buy a Subaru at the moment is through European (not Japanese) import.This keeps all the normal UK spec and warranties (you'll probably not need them) in place. Savings of about 25-30% are to be had.

As your mileage is so low, the savings on fuel would be quite small if you go for a diesel. With a lot of faults starting to appear on common rail diesel engines, I would go for petrol every time.

Go and test drive a Legacy, you'll like it!

Cheers

Thanks for your input. Do you have any contacts for european imports of subarus?
I imported an A-Class from France in 2000 without any problems. In 2002 I was investigating a volvo import and found good prices in Ireland.
Is there a "best" country to start investigating?

 

[Piff]

Sorry Piff I should have remembered your post in the 4matic thread. The 3 litre auto estate has the best autotransmission setup with the sporty bias towards rearwheel drive with the bonus of Subarus vehicle dynamic system similar to Mercedes ETS. The 2 and 2.5 litre autos have a set up which is primarily front wheel drive 90/10 until slippage occurs. still a good drive tho! The later versions of the H6 3 litre engine have chain drive camshafts which eliminates the expensive timing belt change necessary on the belt drive 4 cylinder units and long life plugs 60k as I remember. They do have a reputation for using fuel tho the autos have a much lower rear axle ratio ( higher geared) than the manual spec B You should be able to pick up a good pre spec B 3.0R or 3.0 Rn for sub £15k second hand. Some models languished in compounds in the UK for months so may be older than their reg year suggest. If you look at the vin plate no starting JF----- the year of manufacture no is the 10th CHARACTER. 4-2004, 5-2005, 6-2006.
jgevers knows his stuff go for a test drive you will be smiling at the end!

edit:- dont know much about the volvo xc70 d5 geartronic but with the jacked up suspension its equivalent for comparison purposes would be probably be a subaru legacy outback or the audi allroad. It has the Haldex type transmission similar to the subaru 2/2.5 litre autos with the front wheel bias until slippage occurs. Being a Volvo its probably pretty robust with good safety features and would have an enormous carrying capacity. Not such a sporty drive but if you got you hands on a R type estate thats a Q car and a half.

Sound like I need to set time aside for some test drives! Thanks for your input - please keep the comments coming, good or bad.

 

[Piff]

Hi,

I have owned Subarus since 1994. I still have my first Legacy Turbo, now at 240K miles, still MOTed and used daily in the fields.
All my Subarus have been very reliable including my play car at the moment, Sti version7.
I am looking at a Legacy 3.0 auto estate at the moment. I test drove one about a month ago and I was very impressed. Non of the poncy feeling you get with the new MBs. I think it is a good looking car that brings no status connotations with it. Very good for making B road progress up this part of the country, where the German cars just seem to bottom out over the many undulations.

The best way to buy a Subaru at the moment is through European (not Japanese) import.This keeps all the normal UK spec and warranties (you'll probably not need them) in place. Savings of about 25-30% are to be had.

As your mileage is so low, the savings on fuel would be quite small if you go for a diesel. With a lot of faults starting to appear on common rail diesel engines, I would go for petrol every time.

Go and test drive a Legacy, you'll like it!

Cheers

I see from your profile that you have a ML270CDi - how do you find the fuel economy on that?

 

[GrahamC230K]

Subaru is good or if you like your Audi, a Quattro seems the sensible choice!

How about a Jag - I recall Clarkson testing a Jag estate with all wheel drive on summer tyres in the snow and thought it was great.

 

[jgevers]

I see from your profile that you have a ML270CDi - how do you find the fuel economy on that?

I bought my ML back again after selling it a few months ago. It used to get driven quite hard which resulted in approximately 22 mpg. It now is used just for towing a horsebox.

If you get an ML like mine you will be in for a walllet bursting ride. Just about anything that can go wrong has gone wrong. It is now going into my garage next week for another set of glow plugs and the o/s/f upper wishbone.

In contrast,my Legacy at 240K miles is still on original ball joints and bushes etc. and has never needed anything other than regular servicing.

As far as imports concerned, some car supermarkets like Motorpoint are selling Subarus about 25% below the UK price. The other way to go is with specialist importers like Litchfield or Hendry.

I know it is not quite the done thing to praise other makes on this board but after the bad experiences my family and I have had with MB over the last few years,I can't help myself.

Cheers

 

[jdrrco]

I had an 05 3.0 Outback (please note previous poster, 3.0 is not only available in Spec B), after my CLK 270 and have just got rid of it for an E270.

It is a decent car and mechanically sound, but the fit and finish isn't a patch on MD. At 10 months old and 14,000 miles, it creaked and rattled, the seats and stereo were poor and the auto gearbox was very jerky, nothing like the smooth MB 5-speed.

However, by far the worst feature of the car is the ATROCIOUS fuel economy. I have owned many cars over the years and have always managed to match or better the "official" fuel economy figures. The Subaru quoted figures are a complete joke. The Outback is claimed to do 20.3mpg Urban, 37.7mpg Extra Urban and 28.5mpg Combined. Around town, mine never went above 17.5mpg, motorways 24mpg and even on the smoothest straightest quiet French N-roads (almost constant 60mph) I only got 27mpg from the Outback. When I challenged the dealers about it, they told me "Oh yes, everyone tells us that. There's nothing we can do about it. If you own a car like this you're going to drive it hard." When I told them it only returned 27mpg with cruise control set at 60mph on a long flat straight Roman road, they just repeated there was nothing they could do.

Add to that, service intervals of just 10,000 miles and I wouldn't recommend an Outback to anyone without very deep pockets indeed. My E270 is clearly slower from 0-60, but with the huge torque and Airmatic, it is just as much fun on windy A-roads and is much smoother and more comfortable on Motorways. Add to that running costs about 40% lower and perhaps you can see why I got rid of the Outback after just 10 months. Just take a look at the number of 0-2 year old ones available on Auto Trader and you'll see I wasn't the only one to be disappointed.

 

[Dieselman]

MB UK don't import 4-matic to this country.

Unless it's a new R class 4Matic.

 

[Piff]

Subaru is good or if you like your Audi, a Quattro seems the sensible choice!

How about a Jag - I recall Clarkson testing a Jag estate with all wheel drive on summer tyres in the snow and thought it was great.

Just did a quick search on aoto trader and couldn't find ay 4 wheel drive jag estates for sale. Does any one know any more about them? Top Gear magazine don't seem to rate the X-type.

 

[Piff]

Unless it's a new R class 4Matic.

Point taken - just a little out of my price bracket!

 

[grober]

LEGACY v OUTBACK

Sorry if I misled anyone about the model designation. I tend to distinguish between the " Legacy" Saloons and Estates and the "Outback" models which are indeed Legacy Outbacks if you like. The 3.0H engined Outbacks are available as 3.0 R and 3.0Rn (n for Sat Nav Model) models and not Spec B as I may have implied. I have indeed read many comments on how they "drink " fuel. The Outbacks would be slightly poorer aerodynamically than the estates but with almost identical weight 1565 kilos v 1545 kilos and 5th gear speeds of 27.8/27.1mph per 1000rpm ( differential ratios and wheel/tyre combination account for the difference) its likely their economy would be similar. Good to hear the recent real world experiences of an owner .

 

[Piff]

If i went the subaru route, I would be looking at either a 2.0L or a 2.5L. I have read that they are similar for fuel economy.
With regards to the auto gearbox I was a little concerned that it is only a 4 speed - back to the test drive suggestion I suppose.

 

[Piff]

Saw this earlier - http://www.volvoselectedusedcars.com/control.cfm?MREQ=app_viewVehicleDetails&StockListID=324621
Seemed a reasonable spec & price.

 

[jgevers]

If I was in your position I would try to find a Subaru Legacy GTB Tiptronic auto. 2 liter, twin turbo, 250+hp and reliable. I used one for about 100k miles with about 22 mpg average with my driving.

One of the best cars I have ever owned.......... It is a Japanese import though.

Try to test drive one at David Hendry Cars or Litchfield Imports. You might just like it very much. Brilliant in the snow as well

Cheers

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

You asked about fuel consumption on the ML270 CDi. We manage 30mpg-ish on a motorway cruise (keeping pace with traffic), 26mpg-ish towing, and 27mpg-ish general driving. Not bad IMHO.