Uninsured driver clampdown

[Swiss Toni]

It basically works on road fund licencing. To get your road tax you need to show a valid insurance certificate which has more than one month of the new tax disc validity period remaining. Without this you cant get the tax. Without the tax they assume the car isnt insured.

However, what is to stop certain people from simply not renewing their insurance after they get the tax disc or cancelling the policy once they have the disc. As far as ANPR is concerned the vehicle is taxed so therefore must be insured. Not always true.

What it will do (read should do) is provide the police with a means to more quickly spot stolen vehicles which are undoubtedly driven without insurance.

Sorry, but this is good reason to ignore "...a bloke on t'internet sez..."

It does NOT work on Road Fund Licence.

The powers that come into effect through the Serious Organised Crime & Police Act allow the cops to seize vehicles where they have reason to believe that either the driver does not have a licence that covers them to drive that vehicle at that time and/or does not have insurance that covers them to drive it.

This should cause no problem to the huge number of Motor Trade Insurance Policy holders or LeaseHire vehicles. There needs to be something that triggers the cop (or indeed the authorised DOT Officer) to believe that there is no insurance. (If you can argue a case that you believe a driver is not insured, then so can they).

Historically, the best they could do if you admitted you had no insurance (or they believed that was the case) was give you a "producer" and send you on your way (sounds a bit frustrating eh?!).

This will help where folks get dozens of "producers" to bring their documents to the Police Station, but never do and currently the cops have little power to do anything more than issue another producer until the driver goes to court and gets disqualified (which, if they play it smart can be many months).

The suggestion that getting rid of the Tax Disk and putting the duty on fuel would be good (and may happen as the DVLA get brought into the 20th (no, really) Century) and everything goes onto accurate computer databases - MOT, Insurance, Licence etc - but for the time being the disk is an indicator as to whether the car should be "pulled" or not.
The cops couldn't give a monkeys as to whether the tax was paid (other than that if they have to, so should everyone...) - but it does help them to select the right cars to give plenty of attention to.

ANPR is quietly getting hundreds of burglars, disqualified drivers, theives etc arrested - including those who put false plates on their cars or steal plates. ANPR and the new Powers to seize vehicles will come as something of a blow to the folks who dont' bother with insurance - and there are already powers to seize cars used to cause a nuisance (boy racers beware).
And when you drive past their vans 95% of the population think it is a mobile speed camera.

 

[graeme73s]

So how will it deal with the cars that have lithuanian or polish number plates etc. I bet they are not on any data base, the drivers are not insured, the cars aren't taxed and most of them probably don't have a license. I commute daily from NW London to East London. I probably see a police patrol car on average once a month if that. When we had the bus and train bombings I saw around 15 police patrol cars on the M11 and M25. In conjunction with the register we need to have physical police presence.

 

[Swiss Toni]

So how will it deal with the cars that have lithuanian or polish number plates etc. I bet they are not on any data base, the drivers are not insured, the cars aren't taxed and most of them probably don't have a license. I commute daily from NW London to East London. I probably see a police patrol car on average once a month if that. When we had the bus and train bombings I saw around 15 police patrol cars on the M11 and M25. In conjunction with the register we need to have physical police presence.

Well...

ANPR can read those too, so if there were some information that they were involved in some form of crime, then they would be flagged in the same way as any other plate (ie they WOULD be on the database, does not have to be a UK plate).
The latest software recognises the vehicle type too, so recognises when a C Class is wearing a plate that should be on an E Class (for example).
As for drivers not being on any database, if the cops believe there is no insurance, they can seize the car. Simple as that.

There are far fewer cops on Traffic duties compared to just 5 years ago, but it is Burglary and other crime figures that they are under pressure to deal with - if you want to see more Traffic Cops, tell your Chief Constable and your MP.

 

[Plodd]

Regarding the link to the Manchester operation yesterday, I was part of that.

The old ANPR system was played out with only the DVLA, PNC and local databases loaded. We were stopping too many newish vehicles which were falgged up as having no current keeper and no tax when this wasn't the case and DVLA hadn't updated their info.

Yesterday was much different.

There were lots of vehicles being flagged up as uninsured most correctly. If anyone is stopped and claims to have insurance then they have to prove it. If they cannot within a reasonable time the car is towed. Simple as.

It also highlighted a problem we knew existed but didn't think was as widespread. People obtaining insurance to tax their vehicle and then either making no payments or cancelling the policy.

I even stopped a 70 year old man driving his own car taking his grandchildren to school. His tax expired in January and he claimed to be insured on his own vehicle via his sons trader policy. Guess how he got the kids to school.

 

[High-Lo]

I remember a few years back when the likes of Norwich Union Direct would issue you an insurance certificate and give you the right to cancel (within a short period of time) without charging you for risk. A few chav people I knew used to take out insurance just to get the cover note in order to obtain car tax and then cancel the policy (sending the cover note back and obtaining a full refund) and drive uninsured for the rest of the year. These guys were driving cars with high insurance costs that they wouldn't have been able to afford anyway. When the year was up they would do it all again. Shocking

By the way if we're talking about curry in this thread as well, for an expensive curry night why not pay a visit to Veeraswamy on London's Regent Street. Have been there about 10 times and it never disappoints. Food is great and service is excellent. Just costs a bit more than your average curry house.

 

[ckember]

Plodd

"The new offence of keeping a vehicle without insurance, announced by the Government in September, will mean that uninsured drivers can be caught before they even take to the road. Earlier this year the government gave the police new powers, to seize and ultimately dispose of any vehicle being found driven uninsured."

Does the new insurance laws mean that if you have SORN a vehicle for repairs etc it will still need to be insured even if kept in a garage?

Wont this have a major impact on home restorations

Is the Shezan International still any good?

 

[mobeyone]

Now, how much in terms of resources are the police going to commit to this?

I would be very interested to see the results for this. I think it will only be used for the police when needed.

 

[saorbust]

I know people who've driven cars (new and old) without insurance, tax or a license for over 15 years. Frankly it disgusted me, and anything that the DVLA, police etc can do to stop this misuse of the system is a good idea to me.

Sure we always have exceptions such as foreign plates and so forth, but deal with the bulk of the issues first.

All the databases, DVLA, insurance etc are being integrated (how else would you be able to renew your tax disc online ?) and I only see this as positive. It might reduce errors for a start since it will have to introduce more data validation techniques.

Anyone who knows the City also knows that driving through the square mile ring of steel cameras without insurance / tax etc is a bad idea - you'll get stopped instantly.

Frankly the next line of attach should be the berks with stupid modified number plates 'A MERK' springs to mind. ****.

I still wonder why we don't put an insurance disc in the window of the car alongside the tax disc. I also think the tax disc system has to stay - it inforces the check of the Vehicle data at least once a year and allows management of its lifecycle.

Clarky.

 

[jeremytaylor]

So how will it deal with the cars that have lithuanian or polish number plates etc. I bet they are not on any data base, the drivers are not insured, the cars aren't taxed and most of them probably don't have a license. QUOTE]

A Czech girl I know was saying the other week how she wanted to get a car, she quite fancied a 206CC, but that it would have to be on Czech plates so she didn't have to pay for insurance as well as the car! Gave her a piece of my mind! Like buy a cheaper car and buy insurance to go with it!

 

[Swiss Toni]

So how will it deal with the cars that have lithuanian or polish number plates etc. I bet they are not on any data base, the drivers are not insured, the cars aren't taxed and most of them probably don't have a license. QUOTE]

A Czech girl I know was saying the other week how she wanted to get a car, she quite fancied a 206CC, but that it would have to be on Czech plates so she didn't have to pay for insurance as well as the car! Gave her a piece of my mind! Like buy a cheaper car and buy insurance to go with it!

Or just tell her that she will lose the car if she gets stopped and can't produce any insurance.

 

[Thmsshaun]

Sounds a plan go on holiday to Czech Republic By car drive back sorted. Wonder how long I could get away with it for.


PS Dont tell Plod


On a serious not could she even do that? Then again I suppose if she is Chech it would be quite easy. There was a member on here who had a foreign reg S500 claiming to pay £40 yr insurance.

 

[BTB 500]

On a serious not could she even do that? Then again I suppose if she is Chech it would be quite easy. There was a member on here who had a foreign reg S500 claiming to pay £40 yr insurance.

Yup that was the famous "Rottweiler", think he was Lithuanian. Saw him and the car at a GTG. He said the insurance was quite legit and had satisfied the Police when he'd been checked.

 

[Madferrit]

Anyone know how the German system works? I remember when i bought a car from there some years back the number plate, front and rear, would have two small stickers on it, that were not removeable. If i remember correctly one would say its had its MOT, and the other for insurance... or something of the sort. The guy I bought the car from at the time wouldn't drive it without the stickers, so i had to go with him in his car to get the number plates done, and then returned back to his place to put it on the car, before i could drive it home.

Basically, it was a criminal offence if we drove it without the stickers, and the guy wasn't prepared to take that risk

 

[Dieselman]

Anyone know how the German system works? I remember when i bought a car from there some years back the number plate, front and rear, would have two small stickers on it, that were not removeable. If i remember correctly one would say its had its MOT, and the other for insurance... or something of the sort. The guy I bought the car from at the time wouldn't drive it without the stickers, so i had to go with him in his car to get the number plates done, and then returned back to his place to put it on the car, before i could drive it home.

Basically, it was a criminal offence if we drove it without the stickers, and the guy wasn't prepared to take that risk

The German system does work and is as you have described.
All licence plates are issued by the local "council" where you also insure the car.
I understand the car is insured not the driver, so any driver is then covered.

As long as one lives in a typical registration district, one keeps the same reg number for life and changes it from car to car. It appears to be a good system.

 

[Thmsshaun]

The German system does work and is as you have described.
All licence plates are issued by the local "council" where you also insure the car.
I understand the car is insured not the driver, so any driver is then covered.

As long as one lives in a typical registration district, one keeps the same reg number for life and changes it from car to car. It appears to be a good system.

Now that just sounds far to simple and easy to run for our government to even consider such a system.

 

[Madferrit]

The German system does work and is as you have described.
All licence plates are issued by the local "council" where you also insure the car.
I understand the car is insured not the driver, so any driver is then covered.

As long as one lives in a typical registration district, one keeps the same reg number for life and changes it from car to car. It appears to be a good system.

Was speaking to my brother about this last night after my post, and he remembered the guy saying

<start dodgy german accent>"If you were to see a car without the stickers on, or out of date stickers, then people report it to the police immediately. Everyone takes it very seriously"<end dodgy german accent>

Perhaps a difference in attitude. Over there, people tend to have pride in their laws, whilst here, there is a growing attitude to scam the system.

 

[Thmsshaun]

Was speaking to my brother about this last night after my post, and he remembered the guy saying

<start dodgy german accent>"If you were to see a car without the stickers on, or out of date stickers, then people report it to the police immediately. Everyone takes it very seriously"<end dodgy german accent>

Perhaps a difference in attitude. Over there, people tend to have pride in their laws, whilst here, there is a growing attitude to scam the system.

If I have seen a car with a disc of more than 1 month out of date I have reported it before. I pay. So should everyone else. I have got no time for people who do not pay. It just seems the mentality in this country instead of that is well if they dont pay then why should I. I guess the penalty is just not severe enough. As hass already been said pick up a bangor for £50 - £100 so what if it gets crushed. Couple of grand fine and a 2yr driving ban should do it.

 

[Shude]

Couple of grand fine and a 2yr driving ban should do it.

Often the fine is paid back at £5 per week when the outstanding fines from previous convictions are paid off and the person is already banned or had no license in the first place. They will continue to do as they please.

Some punishment eh?

 

[Thmsshaun]

Often the fine is paid back at £5 per week when the outstanding fines from previous convictions are paid off and the person is already banned or had no license in the first place. They will continue to do as they please.

Some punishment eh?

What would be the answer then?

 

[Spinal]

On a serious not could she even do that? Then again I suppose if she is Chech it would be quite easy. There was a member on here who had a foreign reg S500 claiming to pay £40 yr insurance.

Yup that was the famous "Rottweiler", think he was Lithuanian. Saw him and the car at a GTG. He said the insurance was quite legit and had satisfied the Police when he'd been checked.

I'm currently paying the grand fee of 250 Dalasis for a Z3 (sorry) that I own; I'll agree its not in this country, which in its own reduces insurance costs, but 250 Dalasis coverts to about £5 a year... fully comprehensive... thats with a company called "Axa" (or something similar). That allows not just me to drive, but anybody I give permission too (assuming they have a licence).

I can ask my mother how much she is paying to insure tha banger- I mean Audi- its Italian reg, Italian insurance with european cover; I remember it was WAY cheaper than my mercs, but can't remember by how much.

Michele