Vito/Viano questions (again?!)

[TheJoker]

Hi guys and gals,

My first post here, so I better get a round of virtual drinks in.
I've started a process to replace my 2001 Renault Grand Espace with a new "bike transporter" and the Viano or Vito seems to catch my eye and interest all the time. The Caravelle or Transporter is also on there, but somehow I just don't "feel for it".

I've asked similar questions across a few other MB boards, but I either seem to hit the wrong continent or people just don't have the Vito/Vianos.

During the past weekend I've spent many-a-hours trawling through the posts with "Viano" in them and I'm now quite keen on the Vito Duoliner, especially a la BTB 500, cx355 et al. If not a Vito, then possibly a Viano.

The primary function of this car is to transport myself and my partner in quiet comfort, mainly motorways, with our two motorbikes in the back. For comparison, the Espace does this with grandeur. At 80mph (indicated by GPS not speedo) fully loaded and with roof box, the Espace takes us to Germany at 36mpg. It's quiet, it's comfortable, it's roomy. Sadly it's a bit too small (hence roof box) and being an Espace it's got reliability issues.
This is why I'm now looking towards the Vito/Viano. I'm hoping the reliability issues described in this thread would be history. Could anyone confirm what the generic status on this is?
I was also wondering how good the suspension is? And the noise level? I've seen that BTB has been to Germany and cx355 to France a lot. By that account I can assume it's good enough, but I'd love to hear your accounts of it.

Another issue that struck me is that the Duoliners go as "cars", where the Panel van goes as a "van" with regards to speed limits, but the Duoliner still goes as a commercial vehicle when it comes to tax (£185..??). Win-Win! However. If I want to load the bikes in, I'd need to remove the rear row of seats. In this post it says that the second row of seats have to "permanently fixed". Does anyone know anything more about this?! Or have I opened a can of worms here..?!

Was initially thinking of going for a 2.2 Viano with manual box as it creeps (AFAIK) below the £400 tax bracket, but having read here on the forums the Vito 120 Duoliner with the 204bhp seems to talk to my heart more and more. :bannana:
Also, if anyone could post pictures of the loading area of the Vito, especially the Duoliner, I'd be very grateful. I've seen BTB's pictures of the cages etc in the gallery, but I'm more interested about the rails etc, in the floor. Reason for this strange ask is of course that I need to secure two 200kg:ish motorbikes onto the floor somehow. The Viano has got nice long rails and I'm sure I could use those somehow. They seem ideal.
If money were no objection this is what I'd probably go for: Rocket Jockey Racing's Viano.

Thanks for all the posts all of you have made in the past! Very much appreciated!

 

[BTB 500]

OK, to try and take some of those points!

1. Reliability of the V6 ... I would think (fingers crossed) this is sorted now. The engine & gearbox have both been used extensively throughout the M-B range for a good few years, and there aren't any fundamental issues. It seems the early V6 Vito/Vianos did have a problem with the ECU map and EGR operation, but AFAIK this was rectified. Touch wood our late 2007 has been fine so far (13k miles) ... it did have the ECU reflash recall done (although it seemed OK before). Obviously with any vehicle you will get occasional bad ones.

2. Comfort etc. Our Dualiner is pretty good. It's more refined at motorway speed than our Audi A4 TDi; remember it has a top speed of over 120 so at 80 it's not being worked hard. I found the long drive to/from the South of Germany very easy & relaxing ... a torquey V6 diesel with an auto gearbox and cruise control is a great combination.

3. Suspension. We find the stock suspension absolutely fine. Ours rides on 17" alloys and it's a pretty good compromise between comfort and handling (which is extremely good ... it 's very composed when being hustled along, and is perfectly happy at high speed on the autobahn). Although lightly loaded 99% of the time, I have driven it with almost a tonne of floor tiles loaded in the middle and to be honest it felt completely normal! Air suspension (self levelling at the rear) is a factory option.

4. Speed limits / tax / etc. Provide the unladen weight is below 2040 kg the Dualiner qualifies as a Dual Purpose Vehicle, to which normal car speed limits apply. Note that the rear (middle) seats must be permanently fitted (not fixed). If you remove the second row seating it would no longer be a DPV, and van speed limits would apply. However ... a Traveliner (minibus version - a less posh Viano) would retain car speed limits with all the rear seats removed! The Dualiner is a Light Goods Vehicle for road tax (regardless of what you use it for), so you pay a LOT less than you would for a mechanically identical Viano (which is a 'Diesel Car').

5. The 2.2 engine (in its several states of tune) is OK but nowhere near as refined as the V6. The 115 (150 bhp) would probably be the 2.2 to go for (I think this is standard in the Viano).

6. The load bay of the Dualiner has mounting points (not rails) for the rear seats, plus load rings set into the floor. No pictures I'm afraid as the caging in ours was fitted from new (it is bolted to the existing hardpoints for the load rings and rear grab handles).

7. We had a VW Sharan V6 4Motion before the Vito. We specifically didn't want a Viano because:

a) we wanted 3x3 seating (in fact we run it as 3x2 most of the time)
b) we didn't want carpet (the Sharan had it all covered up with rubber matting)
c) we didn't want side windows at the rear (so the dogs were in shade in the summer)

In your position I'd probably be looking at V6 Vianos (which also have a lot more kit as standard).

8. Fuel economy is not brilliant. We get 30 mpg with the cruise control set to 120 kph (about 75), although I think it is still improving slightly as the mileage increases. It is a bigger vehicle than an Espace and fuel consumption suffers at higher speeds (aerodynamic drag).

Any more questions just shout. If you are anywhere near our part of the world you'd be welcome to have a look at our Dualiner if that would help.

 

[TheJoker]

Thanks very much, BTB 500! Very good answer, much appreciated!

1. Reliability of the V6 ... I would think (fingers crossed) this is sorted now. The engine & gearbox have both been used extensively throughout the M-B range for a good few years, and there aren't any fundamental issues. It seems the early V6 Vito/Vianos did have a problem with the ECU map and EGR operation, but AFAIK this was rectified. Touch wood our late 2007 has been fine so far (13k miles) ... it did have the ECU reflash recall done (although it seemed OK before). Obviously with any vehicle you will get occasional bad ones.

I agree. The long thread about the V6 issues seems to have been dying away, which is a good thing. I'm very glad that it seems to be fixed now. If someone's still out there with the problems, please let me know.

2. Comfort etc. Our Dualiner is pretty good. It's more refined at motorway speed than our Audi A4 TDi; remember it has a top speed of over 120 so at 80 it's not being worked hard. I found the long drive to/from the South of Germany very easy & relaxing ... a torquey V6 diesel with an auto gearbox and cruise control is a great combination.

That's very nice to hear. If (hopefully) I get a Vito/Viano, then it will spend most of its (working) time on the motorways of UK and the rest of EU.
How do you find the seat and other ergonomics to be for the driver and front passenger? (I know you have the dual passenger seat at the front)

3. Suspension. We find the stock suspension absolutely fine. Ours rides on 17" alloys and it's a pretty good compromise between comfort and handling (which is extremely good ... it 's very composed when being hustled along, and is perfectly happy at high speed on the autobahn). Although lightly loaded 99% of the time, I have driven it with almost a tonne of floor tiles loaded in the middle and to be honest it felt completely normal! Air suspension (self levelling at the rear) is a factory option.

Excellent! I do like the look of your 17" wheels. My wallet on the other hand likes the 16" much better. But I try not to listen to my wallet if I can.
I guess I should really get myself a test drive, after all this research, to judge for myself.

4. Speed limits / tax / etc. Provide the unladen weight is below 2040 kg the Dualiner qualifies as a Dual Purpose Vehicle, to which normal car speed limits apply. Note that the rear (middle) seats must be permanently fitted (not fixed). If you remove the second row seating it would no longer be a DPV, and van speed limits would apply. However ... a Traveliner (minibus version - a less posh Viano) would retain car speed limits with all the rear seats removed! The Dualiner is a Light Goods Vehicle for road tax (regardless of what you use it for), so you pay a LOT less than you would for a mechanically identical Viano (which is a 'Diesel Car').

Aah! So I can't have the cake and eat it...

• I can get a panel van, which is low speed, but low tax. But I can only bring along 3 people.

• I can get a Dualiner, which is high speed and low tax, but I can't bring the bikes.

• I can get a Traveliner that's basically the same as the Viano but with less goodies, high speed, high tax.

• I can get a Viano 2.2 with manual which creeps under the £400 tax, and has got high speed, but is rare as hens teeth and probably a bit boring to drive.

Or

• I could get a Viano 2.2 with auto, or even better 3.0 V6 (YAY!) auto and pay the £400 tax + higher price + higher fuel consumption, go fast and have any configuration of passengers and/or bikes I need.

One thing though. I don't understand how the Vito Dualiner has made it into that Dual Purpose Vehicle as this document of DFT, says

Q. Are there any exemptions from these lower speed limits for vans?
A. There is one (small) group of vans which have the same speed limits are cars by virtue of the definitions in Schedule 6 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act of 1984. These are vans that are both derived from a car chassis and also have a maximum laden weight of no more than 2 tonnes. This means that the weight of the vehicle and the payload it is designed to be able to carry when added together do not exceed 2 tonnes. The van design must be a derivative of a car body, it is not sufficient that it looks similar to a particular car.

I'm assuming I'm missing some information. Not that the rules are important to me, as long as the car goes into the DPV category.

5. The 2.2 engine (in its several states of tune) is OK but nowhere near as refined as the V6. The 115 (150 bhp) would probably be the 2.2 to go for (I think this is standard in the Viano).

Yes, 150bhp standard in Ambiente, and definitely the most common, with auto.

6. The load bay of the Dualiner has mounting points (not rails) for the rear seats, plus load rings set into the floor. No pictures I'm afraid as the caging in ours was fitted from new (it is bolted to the existing hardpoints for the load rings and rear grab handles).

I see. I did find a picture yesterday on Mercedes' site, but it was in some strange format so I couldn't save it. Either way, I'm sure it can be solved somehow.

7. We had a VW Sharan V6 4Motion before the Vito. We specifically didn't want a Viano because:

a) we wanted 3x3 seating (in fact we run it as 3x2 most of the time)
b) we didn't want carpet (the Sharan had it all covered up with rubber matting)
c) we didn't want side windows at the rear (so the dogs were in shade in the summer)

I can completely see your reasoning. If I could retain the seats, I would pretty much be on the same level.

In your position I'd probably be looking at V6 Vianos (which also have a lot more kit as standard).

That's where I started, and the seats vs. tax issue has pretty much put me back there again. I would rather spend a bit less on the car and drop some of the goodies from the Viano. I'm no fan of things that break (*looking-out-over-the-Esapce*) and the more stuff you have, the more breaks. But also as carrying motorbikes a bit more ruggedness wouldn't go amiss at all.
V6 Vianos also tend to be very expensive, and 2.2l autos very common (and I somehow resent paying £400 tax for a 2.2l auto when I could have a manual for about half, or 50bhp more for the same price in the V6 model).

8. Fuel economy is not brilliant. We get 30 mpg with the cruise control set to 120 kph (about 75), although I think it is still improving slightly as the mileage increases. It is a bigger vehicle than an Espace and fuel consumption suffers at higher speeds (aerodynamic drag).

Yes, I'm quite aware of that, but because the total mileage I do (currently) tend to be quite low overall, I don't mind spending a bit extra on fuel for the added comfort.

Any more questions just shout. If you are anywhere near our part of the world you'd be welcome to have a look at our Dualiner if that would help.

I'm not very often out Reading way, but should you pass North Oxfordshire on the M40/A34/A43 and fancy a coffee, I'm probably around.

With regards to questions all I can think of right now is regarding the auto gearbox . Has the (639) Viano/Vito always had the tiptronic auto gearbox? I've read that the old Vito (638) and V-class had bad automatic gearboxes. Is this a problem on the rear wheel drive (639) too, or is that also a thing of the past?

Thank you very much for your insight! I very much appreciate you taking time to reply.

 

[jeremytaylor]

On the tax issue, our lwb T5 174 (ok, not as quick as a V6 Vito but no EGR issues, either ) started off as a 'Diesel Car', because that's the bracket VW put camper van platforms into. We have since had it reclassified as PLG, with the aid of the Conversion Companies' 'Conversion Certificate' that proves it started out in life as a van, not a car.

 

[TheJoker]

Thanks jeremytaylor. I have just had a conversation about this with my girlfriend, and I feel I'm getting more and more confused the more I read/hear about this van/car/dual-purpose issue. I should probably research more!

 

[BTB 500]

How do you find the seat and other ergonomics to be for the driver and front passenger? (I know you have the dual passenger seat at the front)?

We've got the optional 'comfort' seating, which is pretty good. We do the run to/from Germany with just a single brief stop for fuel ... no problem at all. The only issue wouldn't bother you ... there's not an awful lot of legroom in the centre at the front. General ergonomics are good as well, we have phone pre-wiring so the sound system and phone (and cluster menus) are operated through the steering wheel buttons. The only thing I don't like is that the rear wash/wipe is a rocker switch on the dash rather than being on the stalk with the front wipers. There are an awful lot of 'nice touches' ... both simple things like the interior lights fading in and out and others like 'locator lighting' etc. that are configurable through the menus. Incidentally the handbook is available online here: Vito ? Online Operating Instruction [HOME]

One thing I do miss is 'miles remaining' on the trip computer (which the Sharan had, and is useful for long trips).

One thing though. I don't understand how the Vito Dualiner has made it into that Dual Purpose Vehicle as this document of DFT, says

Aha you are getting confused with CDVs (Car Derived Vans), which are different!

Has the (639) Viano/Vito always had the tiptronic auto gearbox? I've read that the old Vito (638) and V-class had bad automatic gearboxes. Is this a problem on the rear wheel drive (639) too, or is that also a thing of the past?

I don't know a huge amount about the 638 other than it has a terrible reputation for both quality & reliability (bad enough with a van but pretty tragic if you shelled out a small fortune for a V Class). The 5-speed auto box in the RWD 639 (standard fit on the V6) has been around for a very long time indeed .... it's more or less the same one that my SL has (with the addition of +/- gear selection via the gearlever). The higher-powered AMG Mercs. still use the 5-speed box (rather than the newer 7-speed) because it has a higher torque rating.

 

[TheJoker]

Thanks ever so much for your reply. You're pretty much putting my concerns to rest. And you're right. I'm confusing Car Derived Vans with Dual Purpose Vehicles. Thanks!
I'll have to have a look at the online manual. Strangely I do like reading manuals.

All I'm wondering now (beside how to afford one) is what the Police would say if I temporarily remove the second row of seats from a Dualiner. If they'd be OK with that, then my choice would be a Dualiner, otherwise I'll have to spend more and get a Viano (or Traveliner).

Thanks again!

 

[BTB 500]

All I'm wondering now (beside how to afford one) is what the Police would say if I temporarily remove the second row of seats from a Dualiner. If they'd be OK with that, then my choice would be a Dualiner, otherwise I'll have to spend more and get a Viano (or Traveliner)

IMO you'd only have a problem if actually pulled over for speeding. More likely scenario is a NIP arriving through the post after being nabbed by a roadside laser etc., in which case you would simply have to say that the seats were in there at the time (if asked). Unless you were over the car limit as well, in which case you're on your own!

You need a minimum of 2 rear seats in to qualify as a DPV. The Dualiner's 'comfort' rear seats are a single plus a double, so we have the single unit out most of the time. They flip/fold/recline/remove like MPV seats ... very handy. The 'double' unit has separate backrests so they can be reclined or folded forward independently.

The standard rear seating is more basic I think.

 

[TheJoker]

I've seen your configuration in the gallery, and I think it's absolutely perfect. I would probably run with 5 seats (2 front, 3 back) as "normal", if I could choose.
And with regards to removing the rear seats, I know what you mean. I am however a bit strange in the sense that I like to keep everything above board if I can. Even "silly" stuff like this. Maybe I just don't like looking over my shoulder all the time.

Either way, we'll see what happens. I much appreciate your replies. Thanks!

 

[BTB 500]

There's nothing dodgy about removing the rear seats ... just that 'van' speed limits would then apply (10 mph lower on unrestricted single & dual carriageway).

It's all a bit daft - I ran my Sharan as a 2-seater (with all 5 of the rear seats removed) for most of the time I had it!

And I used to unbolt the rear seats of my Montego estate when going camping!

 

[TheJoker]

Yes, one would think that by removing the seats the only thing it affects is to drive in accordance to the van speed limits.
The Espace runs as a two seater quite often too. In fact as it stands one row of seats are in there, but they're folded up. But then again, I pay car-tax on that car (£204, I think). And as we've already established, a V6 Vito/Viano car would cost £400 in tax.

Thanks again!

 

[TheJoker]

COMAND question

What's the general concencus of the usefulness of the COMAND system in the Viano (and Vito for that matter)? Was in my friend C-class a few weekends ago and as a gadgeteer I did take a shine to it, however, in the Viano/Vito it's in a different position. Is it as useful there? And this C-class had a knob on the centre console that operated it, how does the Vito/Viano work?
And, most importantly; can you "hack" it to play DVDs whilst driving? Would be nice for the passenger to watch some stuff on long journeys.

Thanks!

 

[BTB 500]

COMAND is extremely expensive in the Vito ... £2145 as a factory option when I was speccing our van (early 2007). Plus another £630 for the multi-function steering wheel and phone pre-wiring!

I believe it's also a simplified version of COMAND ... same as the A Class has? Definitely not the version used in other M-B saloons. Forum member 'Alfie' is the expert on this and would be able to advise.

A 'video in motion' hack is technically possible but illegal. No reputable company would do this for you (it's not a DIY job).

We went for the Sound 20 audio upgrade (£230), which fully integrates with the multi-function wheel and phone wiring. Plus a high spec. TomTom for the navigation, which we also use in the SL and our Audi.

 

[TheJoker]

Thanks again, BTB! The reason for asking is simply because the option is so expensive, and therefore I'm expecting cars with COMAND to command (pun intended) a higher price. I'm wondering if it's worth having or avoiding. It would be nice as I said to have a movie playing for the passenger, and have it permanently mounted rather than something a theif feels the need to break a window for.
If I'd buy a new Vito/Viano I doubt I'd pay that premium for the COMAND. I probably would do just as you have; a stand-alone (or after market) SatNav is about 10% of the cost of the COMAND. But phone pre-wiring is indeed nice, so is the buttons on the wheel.

Gadgets, gadgets!!

Thank you *bows*!

 

[BTB 500]

On normal M-B saloons & estates COMAND is definitely a desirable option when it comes to resale. It's extremely rare on Vitos (because of the cost), and not common on Vianos ... so I don't think it's "expected" in the same way in the 2nd hand market.

The dealer we got our Vito from offered a Panasonic(?) double-DIN colour screen satnav / stereo unit for a fraction of the price of COMAND. Quite a few people went for it, apparently. We already had the TomTom (and with 2 other vehicles that don't have integrated satnav, a 'transferable' solution made the most sense).

The phone pre-wiring & stereo integration (with the multi function wheel) is not that expensive, and well worth having IMO. You can see the list of options we went for by clicking the picture of the Vito in my signature. Some of those are standard on the Viano.

 

[219]

I can't really add too much to the comments above as both of you have obviously done a lot of research here .

I'm just wondering if a 4x4 pickup style vehicle with a crew-cab might suit your needs ?

Again , I haven't done any research but I'm thinking along the lines of the Mitsubishi Animal/Warrior or whatever they're called - are they taxed/treated as a car for speed limits , would you get a couple of bikes in the back ? Even with a hardtop on . On an odd occasion you need to take extra bikes/people - what about a trailer , accepting the reduced speed limits/increased ferry costs ?

It may be unsuitable for any number of reasons , but I'm just trying to help .

Good luck .

 

[TheJoker]

Very good points, BTB. I've always had a "stand alone" GPS, and it's moved between bikes, cars, boats and even aeroplanes, but the option of SatNav + an occasional DVD did intrigue me.

In a slight hindsight I guess I'm trying to prepare myself for a salespersons pitch of having a COMAND vs. not having one. They'll always find a reason to make you pay extra. It's their job after all!

The phone pre-wiring & stereo integration (with the multi function wheel) is not that expensive, and well worth having IMO. You can see the list of options we went for by clicking the picture of the Vito in my signature. Some of those are standard on the Viano.

"Not that expensive" is obviously quite relative, but having studied the Viano price list, I think the percentage added to the cars price is worth it compared to the ease of use and convenience. I.e I'd probably go for the slightly upgraded stereo, phone pre-wiring and the fancy-pants steering wheel.

Thanks again for your invaluable insights!

 

[TheJoker]

I can't really add too much to the comments above as both of you have obviously done a lot of research here .

I'm just wondering if a 4x4 pickup style vehicle with a crew-cab might suit your needs ?

Again , I haven't done any research but I'm thinking along the lines of the Mitsubishi Animal/Warrior or whatever they're called - are they taxed/treated as a car for speed limits , would you get a couple of bikes in the back ? Even with a hardtop on . On an odd occasion you need to take extra bikes/people - what about a trailer , accepting the reduced speed limits/increased ferry costs ?

It may be unsuitable for any number of reasons , but I'm just trying to help .

Good luck .

I really appreciate your concern and your thoughts. I have turned and twisted this "problem" for several years, I've found cons, and pros with pretty much every type of vehicle out there. The major cons for a pickup is primarily the exposed vehicles, weather, eyes, thieves etc. But also, a 4x4 style pick up is very high, and lugging a 200kg bike up there can be hard work. Another slight convenience of an enclosed vehicle is that you can stuff other cargo in the "crevices" around a bike.
A trailer, like you say, commands twice the price on a channel crossing. Add to that a slower speed, and extra wheels to fail, plus the cons of above pickup. And I'm absolutely rubbish at reversing with a trailer.

Also, with the way that UK laws/taxes/insurances are a separate dedicated vehicle isn't feasible, and I guess this is what bothers me the most. Ideally I could have a cheap run-around and then a van. But in UK I'd have to pay double tax, double insurance. There are countries that don't have a yearly car-tax, and there are countries where you can take a car "off sorn" for a few months per years. I guess you have to play by the rules.

All that typed, I will gladly listen to any suggestion offered, in the end it might save me money, etc! Thanks!

 

[219]

I had thought about the high COG , and the loading/unloading problem - presumably a ramp and careful use of the bike engine would work ? Don't know if the proprietary hardtops for pickups would accommodate a couple of bikes ?

The other thing that springs to mind is one of the continental caravan makers , I'm sure , produced a caravan with a rear door designed to accommodate a motorcycle , I think it might have been Eriba , but I also think it only took one bike - no doubt because of payload . You'd need a fairly hefty towcar to pull something like that anyway .

 

[TheJoker]

You can indeed use the engine to get "up there". Problem is that you need to walk next to the bike (stools, etc) and height really does upset your balance. Coming down can also be a problem. Especially giving that you sometimes don't have a flat tarmac'd surface.
I must admit that I haven't researched much of the hardtops, because most pickups that I'd like to have are, as you suggested, "Crew cabs" which results in a very short "flatbed" (Is that the word?). A motorbike needs between 2200mm and 2400mm (2.2m to 2.4m) to live comfortably. The Grand Espace is quite close to the limits.

With regards to caravans, I've touched this subject even less, primarily because I'm assuming that a caravan (aside from towed) would use space for conveniences such as sanitary things. I don't really have any need for that. If we need to stop outside of the comforts of a B&B/Hotel/Friends, we're happy to lug the bikes outside, and sleep within the car for a night. Mostly our travels have been short enough to reach our destination within less than 24h.

Thanks!