grober
MB Master
Remind us of the precise model of Becker you've got Bruce- It may be worth repairing? Maybe that "running hot" episode has fried something?
W124 Gremlins
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brucemillar
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grober said:
Graeme
Becker Traffic Pro 730
Another day of elimination.
The Kenwood ran all night with zero battery drain.
The Becker definitely oscillates with the ignition off, radio off and keys out.
The oscillation changes pitch if I open the facia panel an close it. Or if I turn on the dome lights or open a door.
I am now sure that it is the switched live and the Becker are interacting somehow.
It will be beyond economical repair.
I found an article that says there is a known issue with a short to earth if you use the Becker removal keys and they push in further than required. Once done it is knackered. https://aldousvoice.com/2015/02/15/ferrari-becker-radio-current-leak/
I don't have any keys and never needed them as I never clicked the unit fully in.
Sent from my iPhone using sausage fingers.
grober
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Fascinating find Bruce. Well done. Looks like a write off then. 
d w124
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I that's the issue I seriously don't see how it can't be repaired
What bothers me is that when you use the removal pins they click into position so one would have to be a fool to carry on pushing
What bothers me is that when you use the removal pins they click into position so one would have to be a fool to carry on pushing
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brucemillar
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DAsh
I don't really know if that is the issue ;^( I don't have the removal pins as I never needed them. The opening on my 124 is so tight I can just push the head unit in without locking it, then pull it out as required.
I will check voltages etc again today to see what happened overnight. I do know a guy in Enfield (Carphonics) who repairs these (I think). I may give him a call.
I don't really know if that is the issue ;^( I don't have the removal pins as I never needed them. The opening on my 124 is so tight I can just push the head unit in without locking it, then pull it out as required.
I will check voltages etc again today to see what happened overnight. I do know a guy in Enfield (Carphonics) who repairs these (I think). I may give him a call.
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Bruce the Beckers radios were tied in to the alarm system .
grober
MB Master
From the link Bruce posted:-
The pin closest to the front of the head unit (circled in red in the photo above) is pin 4, which is permanently connected to a +5V supply even when the head unit is off. Inserting the left-hand removal key all the way in is almost guaranteed to short this pin to ground, which is why it is of paramount importance to switch the battery isolator switch to OFF before attempting to remove the head unit. Shorting this pin to ground will not blow any fuse as the +5V is likely obtained from the main +12V with a DC-to-DC converter, most of which have built-in overload protection. However, other components could be damaged by the current surge and there is strong circumstantial evidence that the reported anomalous current draw that affects these units develops after such a short. When this fault develops, the head unit will appear to work perfectly in all its functions, but it will draw hundreds of mA even when in OFF state. A damaged unit is shown below, with a current reading (when off) of 300mA. Such a high current draw equates to more than 50 Ah over a week and can flatten even a healthy battery if not connected to a battery tender.
Seems to fit the bill symptom wise if not from the exact same cause. I would suggest that his recent " overheated last Tango in Paris "
with his speakers will have caused a similar internal fault somewhere from excessive current draw.
when I see circuit boards with lots of ICs and surface mount components unless the fault is confined to the larger discrete components which can be desoldered and replaced I tend to think the board is beyond economic/practical repair.
Hence the guy's solution to isolate the radio's continuous 12v supply via a ignition switched relay [ with all its niggly side effects] Had there been an easy component replacement fix surely he would have gone that route?
The pin closest to the front of the head unit (circled in red in the photo above) is pin 4, which is permanently connected to a +5V supply even when the head unit is off. Inserting the left-hand removal key all the way in is almost guaranteed to short this pin to ground, which is why it is of paramount importance to switch the battery isolator switch to OFF before attempting to remove the head unit. Shorting this pin to ground will not blow any fuse as the +5V is likely obtained from the main +12V with a DC-to-DC converter, most of which have built-in overload protection. However, other components could be damaged by the current surge and there is strong circumstantial evidence that the reported anomalous current draw that affects these units develops after such a short. When this fault develops, the head unit will appear to work perfectly in all its functions, but it will draw hundreds of mA even when in OFF state. A damaged unit is shown below, with a current reading (when off) of 300mA. Such a high current draw equates to more than 50 Ah over a week and can flatten even a healthy battery if not connected to a battery tender.
Seems to fit the bill symptom wise if not from the exact same cause. I would suggest that his recent " overheated last Tango in Paris "
with his speakers will have caused a similar internal fault somewhere from excessive current draw.
when I see circuit boards with lots of ICs and surface mount components unless the fault is confined to the larger discrete components which can be desoldered and replaced I tend to think the board is beyond economic/practical repair.
Hence the guy's solution to isolate the radio's continuous 12v supply via a ignition switched relay [ with all its niggly side effects] Had there been an easy component replacement fix surely he would have gone that route?
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brucemillar
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Dash
I do not feel like you had me over at all. It works as it should - this is the baffling thing - It just appears (just now) to absolutely kill the battery in less than 24 hours.
FYI: The wonderful Ted devoted a couple of hours on the phone with me as we mulled this over. Ted, correctly states that with a drain like this then something must be getting hot?
The Radio "was" getting hot and still draining the battery. It is no longer getting hot still works correctly but still drains the battery. Very odd indeed.
In the link I posted the chap states that the radio does keep working but will cause a massive drain ;^(
I do not feel like you had me over at all. It works as it should - this is the baffling thing - It just appears (just now) to absolutely kill the battery in less than 24 hours.
FYI: The wonderful Ted devoted a couple of hours on the phone with me as we mulled this over. Ted, correctly states that with a drain like this then something must be getting hot?
The Radio "was" getting hot and still draining the battery. It is no longer getting hot still works correctly but still drains the battery. Very odd indeed.
In the link I posted the chap states that the radio does keep working but will cause a massive drain ;^(
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brucemillar
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It begs the question:
Where is the heat going now?
I still have the massive drain but zero heat increase.
Where is the heat going now?
I still have the massive drain but zero heat increase.
grober
MB Master
This was interesting
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/att...3a-battery-drain-acceptable-battery-drain.pdf
in particular the remarks about the electric aerial which draws about 2-3 amps for 10 seconds on power up- presumably some sort of motor orientation subroutine Am I up or down -check limit switches sort of thing -- now if that "Constant" 12v/5volts radio supply is being constantly switched off and on internally by the fault then that might result in a fairly constant aerial motor current drain of 2-3 amps- enough to drain the battery overnight. The 300mA radio drain quoted seems hardly enough to drain a fully charged battery overnight- more like several days . Easy way to test this theory would be to disconnect the aerial power signal lead to the aerial- the aerial motor will have its own independently fused motor supply. In this scenario it would be the aerial motor that would get hot.
All assuming you have an electric aerial Bruce?
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/att...3a-battery-drain-acceptable-battery-drain.pdf
in particular the remarks about the electric aerial which draws about 2-3 amps for 10 seconds on power up- presumably some sort of motor orientation subroutine Am I up or down -check limit switches sort of thing -- now if that "Constant" 12v/5volts radio supply is being constantly switched off and on internally by the fault then that might result in a fairly constant aerial motor current drain of 2-3 amps- enough to drain the battery overnight. The 300mA radio drain quoted seems hardly enough to drain a fully charged battery overnight- more like several days . Easy way to test this theory would be to disconnect the aerial power signal lead to the aerial- the aerial motor will have its own independently fused motor supply. In this scenario it would be the aerial motor that would get hot.
All assuming you have an electric aerial Bruce?
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brucemillar
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Graeme
Yes we have an electric aerial (not the original Hirschmann). When I tested this with a DVM on the Blue antenna wire. I see the brief blink as it energises the relay. The antenna goes up with the ignition and radio on. Down with the ignition off (after a five second delay) There is no stray voltage on the blue wire.
We must also remember that when installing the original Kenwood we 'appear' to cure the problem. This is important as the Kenwood is using the same wiring connector from the car end with only the car to head unit ISO connector being different (athough the power wires all use the same pin outs and colours)
Now here is the scary science bit.
Overnight and this morning it has NOT lost voltage with the battery staying constant at 13.2VDC and the Becker in place fully connected. I can still here (but you do have to strain your ears) the Becker oscillating and that pitch changes if I switch anything in the car. Where I thought this was from the speakers, I am now convinced it from the head unit itself. It is still not getting hot.
Is there any possibility that a loose connection could cause such behaviour? All I did yesterday was swap head units back and forth between the Kenwood and the Becker.
Yes we have an electric aerial (not the original Hirschmann). When I tested this with a DVM on the Blue antenna wire. I see the brief blink as it energises the relay. The antenna goes up with the ignition and radio on. Down with the ignition off (after a five second delay) There is no stray voltage on the blue wire.
We must also remember that when installing the original Kenwood we 'appear' to cure the problem. This is important as the Kenwood is using the same wiring connector from the car end with only the car to head unit ISO connector being different (athough the power wires all use the same pin outs and colours)
Now here is the scary science bit.
Overnight and this morning it has NOT lost voltage with the battery staying constant at 13.2VDC and the Becker in place fully connected. I can still here (but you do have to strain your ears) the Becker oscillating and that pitch changes if I switch anything in the car. Where I thought this was from the speakers, I am now convinced it from the head unit itself. It is still not getting hot.
Is there any possibility that a loose connection could cause such behaviour? All I did yesterday was swap head units back and forth between the Kenwood and the Becker.
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brucemillar
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Well the voltage has stayed up above 12.2vdc for another night with the Becker fully connected. All I have changed, was to switch off the LED Blinking on the Becker. I do not believe that a blinking LED will flatten a car battery, unless that blinking led is an end product of the Becker carrying out some other function?
These are 'overly complex' in that, they are looking for speed sensors/signals for the Nav to calibrate it. That may also cause a drain?
I have not succeeded in calibrating the Nav or getting it to work, despite installing a Backer Nav Antenna. If I could get that working and not constantly calibrating that may get rid of some more drain.
These are 'overly complex' in that, they are looking for speed sensors/signals for the Nav to calibrate it. That may also cause a drain?
I have not succeeded in calibrating the Nav or getting it to work, despite installing a Backer Nav Antenna. If I could get that working and not constantly calibrating that may get rid of some more drain.
grober
MB Master
What's the nominal capacity of the car's battery Bruce--- I'll offer 75A hours and it flattens in say 15 hours - that would indicate a current drain of 5A conservative downrating maybe to 3A Thats still some drain 3-5 amp @12volt represents 36-60 watts =a headlight bulb- which as you and Ted discussed would normally manifest as heat somewhere?
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Depending on the model/age of the Becker you may be able to switch off the need for a speed signal. You can on ours. Its in the service menu - press on/off + Nav together on ours- and then a "GAL" option may appear. The default is to need it so you might be able to turn it off if present. Don't think it will solve the current drain but it might solve the speed sensor issue.
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I wonder if taking the nav cd out has maybe reset something.
It's got me stumped.
It's got me stumped.
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brucemillar
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I have the GAL setting but can only increase it and not turn it off. MY Google searching says that the GAL is to do with the radio dynamic speed volume. How the volume adjusts to the road speed of the car. I set it to zero (that was the default) then tried it a 15, to no effect.
The car is still fine and that is with the Nav CD in the head unit.
I have no idea what changed to rectify this. I am suspicious that I may have a loose bit that is shorting something, who knows?
]I will leave it for now as it all works as designed.
I shall give up on the nav side as it need wiring into the speedometer and gear shift so is a faff. I just wanted a period radio ;^)
My thanks again to all, especially Ted, for jumping here. It's a mystery.
