W201 first facelift, real benefits?

[MichaelMB]

I'm probably looking at a 1987 pre facelift tomorrow, but have also now been offered a 1989 post facelift.
I have seen the marketing video for the differences and read the size differences on Wiki.
For me, the facelifted better rear passenger room is no benefit and the slightly larger size is a negative, but I prefer the newer centre console. The seats however, are they more comfortable in the front, post facelift? Does the revised bumper give reduced noise and MPG?

 

[ChipChop]

Rear legroom in a facelift w201 is still not generous especially with a couple of six footers in the front. Plenty of taxi centre consoles for sale s/h online - easy to retrofit?. Seat comfort in cars of this age is generally down to condition. They are on the firm side though and the optional centre armrest is a must for relaxed driving. I will say a w210 is a much more roomy & comfortable place to be than a w201 imo.

Facelift w201's came with a 2 part plastic engine undertray fitted as standard. No idea if pre facelift came with these as standard too. Good for aero/ mpg? But if you want good mpg it has to be a diesel w201 really. Noise levels could well depend on if the car still has an intact underbonnet insulation pad present. Still available new from partsinmotion/ autodoc (Febi brand), maybe also from the main dealer (try MB Newcastle) possibly model dependent.

Good luck viewing the white import 190e. Hopefully it is a good un!

 

[190]

I can't make the comparison because I only ever had the post facelift model but the front seats were the most comfortable I've had in any car and were still in good shape after 26 years.

My understanding is the the key difference to look for is the double row timing chain on the facelift model.

 

[ChipChop]

I can't make the comparison because I only ever had the post facelift model but the front seats were the most comfortable I've had in any car and were still in good shape after 26 years.

My understanding is the the key difference to look for is the double row timing chain on the facelift model.

I could be wrong but the simplex (single) timing chain versus the duplex (double) timing chain 'issue' was on the high performance 2.3-16 V 2.5-16 models. The latter model having the stronger duplex timing chain engine.

EDIT- M102 engines (all?) got duplex timing chains from January 1988 production year.

I

Thread 'M102 Twin Timing Chain from what year?'

Oct 4, 2013

Hi,

I've dug around, but no success with this one.

Would anyone know what 2ltr (ish) M102 got the Twin Chain, was it the 962?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Paul

• isobars
• chain m102 timing twin year
• Replies: 9
• Forum: Engine

 

[MichaelMB]

Rear legroom in a facelift w201 is still not generous especially with a couple of six footers in the front. Plenty of taxi centre consoles for sale s/h online - easy to retrofit?. Seat comfort in cars of this age is generally down to condition. They are on the firm side though and the optional centre armrest is a must for relaxed driving. I will say a w210 is a much more roomy & comfortable place to be than a w201 imo.

Facelift w201's came with a 2 part plastic engine undertray fitted as standard. No idea if pre facelift came with these as standard too. Good for aero/ mpg? But if you want good mpg it has to be a diesel w201 really. Noise levels could well depend on if the car still has an intact underbonnet insulation pad present. Still available new from partsinmotion/ autodoc (Febi brand), maybe also from the main dealer (try MB Newcastle) possibly model dependent.

Good luck viewing the white import 190e. Hopefully it is a good un!

Thanks Chip

 

[MichaelMB]

I can't make the comparison because I only ever had the post facelift model but the front seats were the most comfortable I've had in any car and were still in good shape after 26 years.

My understanding is the the key difference to look for is the double row timing chain on the facelift model.

Thanks I didn't know about that difference. More reliable? Did pre facelift have belt/single chain?

 

[MichaelMB]

Thanks I didn't know about that difference. More reliable? Did pre facelift have belt/single chain?

Ah, I see from ChipChop 's post it had single chain, is it much of a needed or desirable upgrade to duplex?

 

[190]

Ah, I see from ChipChop 's post it had single chain, is it much of a needed or desirable upgrade to duplex?

Mine had the duplex chain and did 140K miles without problems. You will see suggestions on the net that the single row chains need replacing sooner. Off course if it's already been done then it might not be an issue.

This is just one place you will see the issue mentioned.

https://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/reviews/mercedes-benz/190-w201/buying

 

[MichaelMB]

Mine had the duplex chain and did 140K miles without problems. You will see suggestions on the net that the single row chains need replacing sooner. Off course if it's already been done then it might not be an issue.

This is just one place you will see the issue mentioned.

https://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/reviews/mercedes-benz/190-w201/buying

Thanks so much, very helpful again. Yes, I can see that the duplex chain is desirable

 

[Pontoneer]

Rear legroom in a facelift w201 is still not generous especially with a couple of six footers in the front. Plenty of taxi centre consoles for sale s/h online - easy to retrofit?. Seat comfort in cars of this age is generally down to condition. They are on the firm side though and the optional centre armrest is a must for relaxed driving. I will say a w210 is a much more roomy & comfortable place to be than a w201 imo.

Facelift w201's came with a 2 part plastic engine undertray fitted as standard. No idea if pre facelift came with these as standard too. Good for aero/ mpg? But if you want good mpg it has to be a diesel w201 really. Noise levels could well depend on if the car still has an intact underbonnet insulation pad present. Still available new from partsinmotion/ autodoc (Febi brand), maybe also from the main dealer (try MB Newcastle) possibly model dependent.

Good luck viewing the white import 190e. Hopefully it is a good un!

Having had a very early B reg one , a late pre facelift on an E reg , and my 190 LE on a K reg , I can say all had an under tray .

Can’t recall any difference in seat comfort , but when I had my 2.6 I happened to come across a set of orthopaedic front seats in a breakers yard , and fitted these , together with the pump and air pipes from the donor car , and they were great ( I was looking at seats due to wear on my drivers seat side bolster , the usual place ) and these ones were in the correct fabric . Both cars had worn drivers seats , but both passenger seats were perfect , and it was a simple matter to take the good backrest cover from my original passenger seat and swap it onto my new drivers seat ; especially since my car originally had no armrest so the seat cover didn’t have a hole in the right hand side , hence was good for the drivers seat .

 

[Pontoneer]

Thanks I didn't know about that difference. More reliable? Did pre facelift have belt/single chain?

Single chain , and prone to stretching at high mileage

 

[Pontoneer]

Thanks so much, very helpful again. Yes, I can see that the duplex chain is desirable

It has been a while , but I think you can see it if you remove the oil filler cap , so easy to check which chain any prospective purchase has .

It is relatively easy to replace a chain : with the cam cover removed you can split the old one and join on the new one , then wind it round by hand .

 

[Will]

I think there will be far more difference in condition between cars based on the sort of life they have had - where and how much they’ve been driven and how they’ve been maintained, than concern over spec over the years.

Regards the simplex vs. duplex chain - it’s not really just the chain that is the problem. And chains don’t really stretch either. The issue is that a worn chain damages and wears all of the other timing components - mainly the sprockets and guides. MB updated the design of the chain tensioners on these more than once - they used to operate with oil pressure feed and a spring to maintain tension which meant that at cold start the chain would be loose and flap about causing wear and could even break the guides or tensioning rail. Later tensioners would self-adjust and ratchet out to prevent this, keeping the chain taught at all times.

In other words, as expected MB made numerous improvements over the years - not just a case of simplex vs. duplex chains.

In my opinion, a later facelift W201 that is as free from corrosion as you can find would be your best bet in terms of ownership experience. They also got more kit as standard.

Just remember that these are all old cars now, modern MBs drive better and are less of a headache these days. Even the youngest ones are 30+ years old and age will show in terms of rubber parts, fuel system components etc. Parts will be more difficult to find etc.

Good luck

 

[MichaelMB]

I think there will be far more difference in condition between cars based on the sort of life they have had - where and how much they’ve been driven and how they’ve been maintained, than concern over spec over the years.

Regards the simplex vs. duplex chain - it’s not really just the chain that is the problem. And chains don’t really stretch either. The issue is that a worn chain damages and wears all of the other timing components - mainly the sprockets and guides. MB updated the design of the chain tensioners on these more than once - they used to operate with oil pressure feed and a spring to maintain tension which meant that at cold start the chain would be loose and flap about causing wear and could even break the guides or tensioning rail. Later tensioners would self-adjust and ratchet out to prevent this, keeping the chain taught at all times.

In other words, as expected MB made numerous improvements over the years - not just a case of simplex vs. duplex chains.

In my opinion, a later facelift W201 that is as free from corrosion as you can find would be your best bet in terms of ownership experience. They also got more kit as standard.

Just remember that these are all old cars now, modern MBs drive better and are less of a headache these days. Even the youngest ones are 30+ years old and age will show in terms of rubber parts, fuel system components etc. Parts will be more difficult to find etc.

Good luck

Thanks. It's a struggle trying buy though! A bloke in Newmarket with one was weird, probably a scam. A guy near Edinburgh seems embarrassed that he asked me for £6500 but had it on Facebook for £4000 in July and hasn't chosen to say why he now wants so much more than before . Another is in Ireland which adds ferry costs but maybe

 

[MichaelMB]

Thanks. It's a struggle trying buy though! A bloke in Newmarket with one was weird, probably a scam. A guy near Edinburgh seems embarrassed that he asked me for £6500 but had it on Facebook for £4000 in July and hasn't chosen to say why he now wants so much more than before . Another is in Ireland which adds ferry costs but maybe

Oh and as I have not been here for 30 days I am not allowed to post a Wanted and!

 

[Will]

Hi Michael,

Just out of interest, have you owned/driven these cars before?

What sort of use are you anticipating, who will maintain it for you?

 

[190]

If you haven't driven one before bear in mind they don't have rack and pinion steering, it's the old recirculating ball steering box which has inherently more free play even to the extent that the MOT allows for that in terms of how much free play is permissible. The free play is adjustable by an Allen screw on the steering box but it must be done at the straight ahead position. There is also less feedback than rack and pinon so it won't feel as sharp to drive which is something MB valued at that time and they persevered with this old system well into the 90's long after most other manufacturers had transitioned to rack and pinion.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Even our old 99 SLK R170 didn't have rack and pinion!! Steered fine though with no noticeable extra play over an R & P system.

 

[ChipChop]

Never had any issues with replacement parts for my w201 diesel. I even have a large stock of new parts bought when factors such as GSF, ECP & CP4L have had offers on. May be a different situation for the 16 valve 2.3-16 & 2.5-16 models though. The w201's ride quality on our dreadful potholed roads is good btw thanks to 65 profile tyres on all but the cooking 16 valve models, longer travel front suspension (hard spring rate paired with a low damper compression rate) and the 5 link rear suspension design. My 300,000+ mile 190d has no steering play and i have never adjusted the steering box in the time i have owned the car.

The diesel w201's (OM601 & OM602) all have duplex timing chains btw so no worries on that front with the oil burners.

Regarding prices now asked for good w201's the best tactic may be to bring up the subject only when you are standing in front of the car with the seller and are ready to do a deal. Sellers are no doubt bombarded by low ball offers from the get go nowadays when selling their car online.

Regarding rust w201's hide it very well thanks to the thickness of the seam sealer gloop Mercedes applied from new. Incredibly thick in places under the car. Have a good poke about at the rear sill ends, around the jacking point rubber bungs and on the rear subframe & anti roll bar mounts. Finding people willing & able to do good fabrication work on old cars is getting increasingly difficult and expensive nowadays sadly.

 

[MichaelMB]

Hi Michael,

Just out of interest, have you owned/driven these cars before?

What sort of use are you anticipating, who will maintain it for you?

Hi Will,

My deceased father was in this Mercedes club and a serial Merc owner. I drove most of them including a 190e estate. I am in the process of downsizing a fleet of vehicles (only have 3 now plus my partners 2) and aim to finish up with the 1985 Landrover that I currently have and a classic (to me) regular driver Mercedes 190e. I am now retired so don't need 100% reliability but have a horror of rust and prefer good fuel economy to outright speed.

It had been something of a toss up between the 190 and a few cars in the SAAB range (several of which I have owned before) but I want a car with auto, power steering, air con, no sunroof and fairly easy shortish front doors for tight car parks. On that point not a huge car either as the parking at some of the beach side car parks we often visit is so tight that cars over 4.8 metres are forbidden! I almost never carry passengers in the back.

Use will be local trips, 60 mile day trips, occasional 1000 mile trips in UK or abroad.

I will do a lot of my own maintenance, but should I feel out of my depth or lazy then, depending on the problem, will either use an independent Mercedes mechanic 3 miles away or use the Mercedes main dealer about 45 minutes drive away.

Advice from this group and other places leads me to believe, to my surprise, that a Japanese Import is the vehicle most likely to meet all of my needs.

Maybe I should write this in the 'about me' profile intro.