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Would you overtake here?

brucemillar, Mercy1, please consider this:

Do you believe that if you were driving the car that was hit... you would have done exactly what the lady driver did and would have ended-up in the lake as she did?

Impossible to speculate since we don't even know precisely what the woman herself did. We know she indicated, but don't know whether that was in good time or last second. If it was in good time, then she was well within her rights to carry out that manoeuvre.

Either way, the car immediately behind had no problem...

But the inescapable fact is that the defendant then slammed into her rear - and it all probably happened in a flash. What she, or any of us, would have seen or done is impossible to say - or whether it would have made any difference.

The evidence, I believe, is that the defendant started his double overtake manoeuvre, then saw the right indicator, tried to cut back in and go on the inside but shunted her with disastrous consequences. Quite honestly, in those circumstances I don't know what anyone could have done better.

What I am sure of, and many including Pontoneer agree, is that the defendant shouldn't have gone for the double overtake in the first place.

What is amazing is that so many people on here have said they would have risked overtaking. Let's suppose they did. Would the outcome have been any different? Would they now be in the dock? Would it have been worth it? Could you justify playing with other people's lives just because you happen to be late?
 
If it was in good time, then she was well within her rights to carry out that manoeuvre.
I have every right to step out into the road and use a pedestrian crossing but if there is a car about to cross it I'd be well advised to wait until it had passed before doing so. Being right is little comfort if you're dead.
 
What is amazing is that so many people on here have said they would have risked overtaking. Let's suppose they did. Would the outcome have been any different? Would they now be in the dock? Would it have been worth it? Could you justify playing with other people's lives just because you happen to be late?
Better not get out of bed in the morning if that is how you feel. Life is full of risks. The op asked a question based on a relatively low risk scenario. He didn't mention anything about the indicator.

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The guy in the car behind her stated that she indicated in good time and he was was able to slow down safely with no concern. So much so that there was enough of a gap for matey boy to pull into unfortunately clipping this ladies car.

Obviously this is not good for those on here who wish to accuse this woman of causing the accident.

I will assume then that your driving skills include overtake when you can clearly see a car ahead indicating in the middle of the road.

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I will assume then that your driving skills include overtake when you can clearly see a car ahead indicating in the middle of the road.
So you're suggesting that he decided to overtake in the knowledge that the lead vehicle was going to turn right directly in front of him? I really think they would consider that "dangerous" driving rather than "careless".
 
Life is full of risks.

Of course it is, and I'll take my chances with everyone else. Doesn't give other people the right to recklessly take risks that jeopardise me, you and our families...

I have every right to step out into the road and use a pedestrian crossing but if there is a car about to cross it I'd be well advised to wait until it had passed before doing so. Being right is little comfort if you're dead.

Naive in the extreme. This would have happened in less time than it would have taken to say belisha beacon...:(
 
Shude said:
So you're suggesting that he decided to overtake in the knowledge that the lead vehicle was going to turn right directly in front of him? I really think they would consider that "dangerous" driving rather than "careless".

I suggest nothing. Read my words and the witness statements. That is if you handy interest at all in what really happened.

He started the overtake when she was indicating and the car in front had already started to slow down. What bit of this do you find difficult to understand? Are you related to this guy?

Ask him why he did this. Not me.

What you are saying is that anybody turning right while indicating deserves to get whacked from behind. I assume that you drive round only ever turning left to be sure of not creating the mayhem that you think is perfectly reasonable driving.

Sent from my iPhone using MBClub UK
 
And on that Bombshell...

Quoting out of context - now that would be the cheapshot Daily Wail, and now DM. Oh dear...!! :dk: :D :D

Good night...:p
 
Another thread that grows faster than my ability to keep up- so apols for not thanking/commenting on recent comments…

This is a scenario that ended in fatalities- which is why I’d like to learn something from it that might save lives in future. Regardless of who was at fault, I feel I’ve more to learn from the perspective of the lead car rather the overtaker (I don’t see anyone here advocating to overtake with a car in front turning, or indicating to turn, across us).

Let’s make it a little more general and imagine ourselves in the lead car of a queue, wanting to turn R in to that layby. Entering the layby, it’s not possible for a vehicle to quickly be clear of the road. How minimise the risk of being hit from behind? Being legally in the right doesn’t give immunity.

It seems to me that it would be preferable to risk the ire of the rest of the queue and bring it to a complete halt- having first checked behind, signalled and positioned over to the right of my lane. Wait briefly for any immediately impatient vehicle to carry on around the stopped queue, then turn in to the layby checking ahead and both directions of road, waving thanks when clear. (For brevity/sanity I’ve not listed all the usual stuff e.g. checking oncoming traffic)

Happy ending? (insert your own punchline...)
 
Another thread that grows faster than my ability to keep up- so apols for not thanking/commenting on recent comments…

This is a scenario that ended in fatalities- which is why I’d like to learn something from it that might save lives in future. Regardless of who was at fault, I feel I’ve more to learn from the perspective of the lead car rather the overtaker (I don’t see anyone here advocating to overtake with a car in front turning, or indicating to turn, across us).

Let’s make it a little more general and imagine ourselves in the lead car of a queue, wanting to turn R in to that layby. Entering the layby, it’s not possible for a vehicle to quickly be clear of the road. How minimise the risk of being hit from behind? Being legally in the right doesn’t give immunity.

It seems to me that it would be preferable to risk the ire of the rest of the queue and bring it to a complete halt- having first checked behind, signalled and positioned over to the right of my lane. Wait briefly for any immediately impatient vehicle to carry on around the stopped queue, then turn in to the layby checking ahead and both directions of road, waving thanks when clear. (For brevity/sanity I’ve not listed all the usual stuff e.g. checking oncoming traffic)

Happy ending? (insert your own punchline...)

I agree...I did this once many years ago...unfortunately a car about 8 or 9 back wasn't paying attention and rear ended the car in front of him.
 
I agree...I did this once many years ago...unfortunately a car about 8 or 9 back wasn't paying attention and rear ended the car in front of him.

Was probably too engrossed in an internet forum road safety debate on his mobile.
 
So is it possible that the lady driver was in fact rushing to the perceived safety of the lay-by because she was concerned about slowing-down or stopping in the lane and causing a rear shunt?
 
So is it possible that the lady driver was in fact rushing to the perceived safety of the lay-by because she was concerned about slowing-down or stopping in the lane and causing a rear shunt?

Probably...hadn't thought of that.
 
Let's face reality, the argument begins and ends with your first sentence. Once we agree he was wrong in this situation - and we do - it follows that he shouldn't have done it and if he hadn't the tragic accident would never have happened. It really is as simple as that.

To then go on and say that in the face of an inadvisable, foolish and even illegal action, the woman is at least as culpable if not more, is a travesty and IMHO deeply offensive to the woman involved. Are you serious?

You are quoting textbook driving advice in a situation which in my view is highly inappropriate. Good driving practice is one thing, but being blamed for not doing everything exactly right in those milli-seconds that a hunk of metal is recklessly hurled at you from behind is entirely another.

Bit like being shot at and then criticised for not ducking quickly enough...:wallbash:

It normally takes two to have a crash .

Those of us who drive bikes as well as cars have 'lifesaver' checks drummed into us because of our vulnerability , and car drivers are well advised to take the same standards of observation on board .

It is absolutely vital to do everything 'exactly right' every time , and I make no apology for maintaining that the woman should have been aware of the overtaking driver . Had she actively checked to ensure the road behind was clear before changing course , the collision could have been avoided .

Both drivers share responsibility for this incident .
 
Impossible to speculate since we don't even know precisely what the woman herself did. We know she indicated, but don't know whether that was in good time or last second. If it was in good time, then she was well within her rights to carry out that manoeuvre.

Either way, the car immediately behind had no problem...

But the inescapable fact is that the defendant then slammed into her rear - and it all probably happened in a flash. What she, or any of us, would have seen or done is impossible to say - or whether it would have made any difference.

The evidence, I believe, is that the defendant started his double overtake manoeuvre, then saw the right indicator, tried to cut back in and go on the inside but shunted her with disastrous consequences. Quite honestly, in those circumstances I don't know what anyone could have done better.

What I am sure of, and many including Pontoneer agree, is that the defendant shouldn't have gone for the double overtake in the first place.

What is amazing is that so many people on here have said they would have risked overtaking. Let's suppose they did. Would the outcome have been any different? Would they now be in the dock? Would it have been worth it? Could you justify playing with other people's lives just because you happen to be late?

I don't agree with the part I highlighted in bold above - the putting on of an indicator in no way confers any right or authority to follow through with the intended manoeuvre .

What might I have done differently ?

If someone started indicating right when I was already in mid overtake , my first option would be use of the horn . If they actually started pulling out then , depending on relative positions , if I was already alongside I would floor it to get past before they hit me ; if not yet alongside then I would brake hard in a straight line , but would NOT attempt to go to their left , because that is where they are likely to try to go if they wake up .

I also would not say categorically that the overtake was not on - just that the defendant did not execute it correctly , and had the crash because he equally did not carry out the appropriate checks before proceeding . Had he fully assessed the situation before committing , he might have positioned his car out and seen the woman signalling right before starting to accelerate past , or might have recognised that she was slowing to turn right if indeed she was before he started to overtake .

If it turned out that he had a clear view past and was already in the act of overtaking before she either started to signal or slow down then , it may be controversial , but I would maintain that he did nothing wrong and she would have been entirely in the wrong .

As has been stated , everything did happen very quickly , and witness statements can be skewed by emotion as well as distorted by different perspectives .

For all the boy saying " she started to indicate .... dad braked .... then he overtook " : the passenger in the following car is unlikely to know whether or not the overtaking car was already out and committed to the overtake before that signal came on .

If the woman just blindly put on a signal and started moving over without even bothering to take any rear observation ( something which should be drilled into every driver - and this case highlights exactly why ) and a following driver was already out on a perfectly legitimate overtake , then she would be 100% at fault .

A police driver out on his final drive would be marked down for NOT going for that overtake , if proper checks were carried out and it was 'on' .
 

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