anyone got any suggestions what i can do about this problem:- ?

[jonnyboy]

About 9 months ago one of my company vans was nicked in Bracknell doing 36 in a 30 with a rear camera. The day in question was a nightmare one, wrong/missing/not enough of various materials, and all 3 of my staff drove this road repeatedly during the day to different places. I was the only one to stay on site so we all agreed it wasnt me. We couldnt work out from supplier receipts etc who had done what journeys at what times either. I requested photographic evidence which didnt help. Spoke to Thames Valley ad the nice lady just said to write on the form what youve told me about being unable to identify the driver. I did, and offered to immediately pay the fine as lets face it the company vehicle had been speeding, fair enough.

Thy wrote back saying that was unacceptable. I wrote back specifically asking them who out of the three guys I should name, and how should I do it, names from a hat etc, and wasnt that perjury, anyway?

Their response was that it would be passed to the summons production people to see if there was a case to answer.

The next thing I heard, some five months later, is the letter I got today demanding £620 within 10 days for a fine. My Mrs rang them up, and whilst they wouldnt give specifics due to data protection, it appears there has been a court case, a summons sent to me, and a judgement against me of 6 points and a £620 fine.

Dont know what to do now, as I have been given no opportunity to go to the court although it appears they are saying they sent a summons out and a judgement. Lets face it, if I had known this is what would have happened I would just have lied and said it was me driving, gone on the course, and paid the fine with no points, and obviously that would have been my stance in the court. Interestingly, an earlier communication from them never got here either. No problems with other post at home, either.

Any thoughts guys?

 

[Dryce]

Any thoughts guys?

Honestjohn: Frequently Asked Questions

 

[et0609]

The law states that the registered keeper must provide details of who was driving. It would appear that they have not accepted your defence of not knowing and believe you did not take reasonable steps to identify who was driving. You have probably been convicted of failing to identify the driver and not being at court, you would certainly be found guilty if the Police evidence was deemed accurate. Also not attending the court hearing is also an offence and I suspect that would explain the large fine. Court summons' are sent using normal mail. Not receiving it is not a defence unfortunately.

You have 2 options. You can appeal and you really should instruct a lawyer to do this for you, one who specialises in road traffic laws, or pay the fine. Bear in mind, if you appeal you will incur legal fees, far exceeding your fine. My advice, grit your teeth and pay up.

 

[LimitedSlip]

I sympathize jonnyboy. This is disgusting. Motoring "offences" are being pursued with what seems on the surface to be inordinate vigour. The intent however is to grind into the masses just who is in charge, and that we don't get any ideas. The small percentage of what most people perceive as criminals are being increasingly ignored, treated as a large business might treat its more serious bad debtors: written off as not worth the costs of chasing. The country is after all now, a business.

Would that the Police and others were given instruction to treat real criminal issues with half the application! All this because your van moved along the road a little faster than is "legal", without consequence.

Hands up who would've believed all this was on the horizon 15 years ago... or accepted it for that matter.

 

[robertjrt]

I sympathize jonnyboy. This is disgusting. Motoring "offences" are being pursued with what seems on the surface to be inordinate vigour. The intent however is to grind into the masses just who is in charge, and that we don't get any ideas. The small percentage of what most people perceive as criminals are being increasingly ignored, treated as a large business might treat its more serious bad debtors: written off as not worth the costs of chasing. The country is after all now, a business.

How so true.

We sent it, therefor you ignored it, but, what proof do we have that in fact it was sent?

My nephew was sent a Penalty Charge Notice (PNC) as his car, with me driving, was in a bus lane, thank you that will be £60.

As is my wont I checked this "alleged" bus lane, no sign warning that there was a bus lane nor its operating hours was displayed at its start.

I have a letter from the Council stating "Due to an Adminastrive error" blah blah, when I can prove I have paid the fine it will be refunded, the question is; what about all the other car/vans that may have been sent PNC's.

Will the Council refund them? How many PNC were sent out?

The annoying thing is that the camera is still pointing down the "illegal" bus lane and I have no doubt further administration "errors" are being made. The Council has a £10 million pound "shortfall" in its fine income

The police inform me that it is a Civil matter even if the Council are continuing to send out PNC's for the "ilegal" bus lane.( due to an administration error etc etc.)

If you have had a PNC for Theobalds Road, London, recently, ask for you money back

 

[bennesspipers]

Worth having half an hour with a solicitor i think.

 

[st13phil]

The next thing I heard, some five months later, is the letter I got today demanding £620 within 10 days for a fine. My Mrs rang them up, and whilst they wouldnt give specifics due to data protection, it appears there has been a court case, a summons sent to me, and a judgement against me of 6 points and a £620 fine.

Dont know what to do now, as I have been given no opportunity to go to the court although it appears they are saying they sent a summons out and a judgement.

If you genuinely did not know that a case was to be heard against you then you can apply to the Court to have the judgement set aside. This will result in the judgement against you being nullified, the fine and any costs cancelled, and a new hearing at which you can present a defence. You need to move quickly (AFAIK there is a time limit for getting a judgement set aside once you are aware that such a judgement exists), and I'd suggest that you engage the help of a specialist motoring solicitor.

 

[peterg1965]

Worth having half an hour with a solicitor i think.

+1, and sharpish, you don't have time to waste here.

Also, post your thread on Pistonheads, they have a 'speed, plod and the law' section, bet you get a comprehensive response.

 

[st13phil]

Regarding specialist motoring solicitors, these guys have a good reputation.

 

[vincenz]

Very harsh if you werent notified about the court case.

As to the original offence, I used to have a driving job where several drivers used the same van through out the day.

One shift (where I wasnt in) no one logged who took which van out and when a fixed penalty was issued for someone speeding no one owned upto it.
I think it eventually ended up with the company secretary in court and a £1000 fine against us, (its a large chain of supermarkets so no one really batted any eyelid). We were then more stringent about keeping a log of whom was driving.

I'm guessing you didnt have this? I think it is a legal requirement.

Good luck with the annulment

 

[EDZ649]

If you genuinely did not know that a case was to be heard against you then you can apply to the Court to have the judgement set aside. This will result in the judgement against you being nullified, the fine and any costs cancelled, and a new hearing at which you can present a defence. You need to move quickly (AFAIK there is a time limit for getting a judgement set aside once you are aware that such a judgement exists), and I'd suggest that you engage the help of a specialist motoring solicitor.

I think it's normally 28 days for getting a judgement set aside IIRC. Bad luck John, hope you get it sorted.

 

[jonnyboy]

thanks so far guys, will look in detail at your answers tomorrow

john

 

[jonnyboy]

Resurrection, and oops, apologies for not updating the thread.

The judgement was set aside as I went to court to swqear under oath I nevver received the summons. This was ages ago, September IIRC.

When I got back on Tuesday I was met with a summons to be heard 27/4. "Failure to notify driver".

I just dont know what the hell to do. I bloody well know it wasn't me driving and it is impossible to name the driver, I offered to pay the fine, they refused. I could be a tw*t about it and name a guy I caught nicking, who owed me money, who i sacked, but
a) thats perjury
b) how can i magic up a name now when my defence all along has been i cant identify him and neither can they.

What on earth do i do now?

 

[flango]

Resurrection, and oops, apologies for not updating the thread.

The judgement was set aside as I went to court to swqear under oath I nevver received the summons. This was ages ago, September IIRC.

When I got back on Tuesday I was met with a summons to be heard 27/4. "Failure to notify driver".

I just dont know what the hell to do. I bloody well know it wasn't me driving and it is impossible to name the driver, I offered to pay the fine, they refused. I could be a tw*t about it and name a guy I caught nicking, who owed me money, who i sacked, but
a) thats perjury
b) how can i magic up a name now when my defence all along has been i cant identify him and neither can they.

What on earth do i do now?

Get a good solicitor and go to court on 27th would be my advice

 

[Captain Yellow]

Yep - get yourself lawyered up for starters.

For what it's worth, I'd be raising an abuse of process argument here. From your original post, it seems the offence took place in approx October 2008. Considering this time delay, and the judgement which was set aside, it can be argued that you have been unfairly prejudiced and that proceedings should be stayed.

 

[Rory]

Duplicated post

 

[Rory]

You said it was a "company van", but who is the registered keeper?

A corporate body cannot be given penalty points.

Pepipoo is a good source for this stuff: PePiPoo: Section 172 - UK Motoring Law

You could go to court and represent yourself, look contrite and say you've tightened up procedures and hope for the best. They don't take kindly to the "I'm a small business, how the heck am I supposed to know who was driving?" excuse, apparently.

Ive heard seen this lady recommended, and initial contact is free (the post is from PistonHeads):

We are very pleased to advise you that the ABD is now able to offer free initial legal advice by email in relation to motoring offences.

This service is available to both members and non-members, so please be sure to mention this when someone tells you they've been snapped by a speed camera, or other motoring offence.

This advice is provided by Emma Patterson, Principal Solicitor at Patterson Law.

Please visit our website -
A B D then 'Resources' - 'Free Legal Advice' for further details.

Regards,
ABD Committee

 

[janner]

I think your best hope is to go to court, say sorry for not keeping accurate records and tell them you've tightened things up since. Hope the fine is less than the original £620 or you'll have just wasted a day you could have been earning.
I reckon it'll cost you £500+. It stinks but that's the way it is.
A free chat with a lawyer might be worth doing but it could just end up costing you more if you employ them to represent you.

 

[jonnyboy]

Further resurrection

I asked for an adjournement of the 27th as we had a funeral to attend (naturally it wasn't pre-planned).
Heard no more till I got a letter mid-june saying they heard in my absence (again.....can you believe this????) guilty by default 6 pts £600-odd fine.
I rang the court same day, explained that I was still awaiting the new date following the adjournment. Seemingly they wrote to me (but strangely enough, for the 2nd time, not received). To say I was cynical was an understatement. The girl I spoke to promised to look into it and ring back. I chased them after ten days when I (again predictably) had no response. Spoke to a lad who actually had a brain cell, he asked me to write a complete explanation/timeline etc.
No response until 1st Aug just before holiday when I got a bailiffs letter for the fine

Went totally ape**** on the phone to the court when I got through (after 2 days solid trying) on the day I was leaving for Europe. "What letter of the 22nd??" was the response. After a heated debate I agreed to put back holiday til later in the day to allow time to find someone with a fax machine who could fax it through (they won't allow emails/scanned documents etc). Faxed it through, got receipt confirmations etc that fax went. Tried for 3 hours to ring to check, couldn't get through so had no alternative but to leave for Dover. Tried for an hour from Dover, no joy. Figured they had to have it as I had the confirmation fax had gone through. Tried to relax on holiday.

Came back to further letter from bailiffs who had ignored my previous "current position" emails (you cannot ring them). Rang court "what fax????". Calmed down and re-faxed. Spent further two days ringing to check received. Got a call to say "we've got it but it's too late". Spoke to solicitor who advised me to send fax confirmations to court, which I did.

Got a court date for last week for a "re-opening application hearing". Spent 2.5hrs travelling with a cracked ankle bone to get there as it had been moved even further away this time (cynical again??). Had hearing and magistrates happy to set aside what had happened. They asked for my version of events for initial offence - I had my diaries from the time etc/copies of all correspondence - was well prepared. I specifically asked the court what I could do to identify the driver over and above what I had done. They refused to respond, and prosecutor told magistrate "this is exactly the type of case I want to take to trial". I was well and truly in her sights I think, a soft tangible target. Got a court date (and bail) next march (!!!!!!) even further away again now. Spoke to solicitor who thinks we have a good case subject to seeing the other side's evidence (which is a photo of the back of the van plus my correspondence). Had to calm down eventually (and tried to enjoy my 40th on saturday).

Got woken up at five past six this morning by two bailiffs bashing on all the doors windows doorbell etc, waking the household, neighbours etc. Showed them (through the letterbox!) the court letter setting the case aside. Thick b***ard's response was "this is oxfordshire magistrates court, nothing to do with a Thames Valley Police case". I basically told him to sod off. He said they knew nothing about it being set aside. I pointed to the piece of paper in his hand which was a copy of all my emails to them (that they haven't responded to).

Can I get through to the court by phone ?? No chance.

Justice? My ****.

 

[flango]

Be very careful with this if you are going to court and they want to take you to trial it will be for the following reasons not only will they go after you for the original offence but in court they will also go after you under the duty of care regs and failing to keep proper records and possibly breach of the Health and Safety act. If you are going to go to court you better make sure you have the following in place and auditable for the last 5 years.

• A Company policy covering the use of vehicles and driving.
• A Vehicle & Driver risk assesment
• Regular driver checks, at least every 12 months covering, license, health, basic eye checks.
• Driver training for repeat accident or speeding offenders
• Maintenance and MOT records

If you are responsible for others driving then they will definitely look at the H&S Act as this applies to on road activities if people drive as part of their job. Prosecutions under this act are ALWAYS sucessful. You are also into the Road Transport Working Time Regulations if the workers are mobile.

Even small companies in Breach of some of the above have been fined £30,000 for breaches of the various acts and regulations.

I would get a very very good solicitor if you are going to go through with this but it could be very expensive. I'm married to someone who used to prosecute this type of offence and I assure you they will leave no stone unturned, you will have HMRC all over your books as well as any other local licensing authority.

All I am saying is please go into this with your eyes open, sometimes it is easier to lose the battle but win the war and £600 migh thave been a good deal?