Are DRL's instead of Fog lamps?

[Simon_M]

The facelift W204 does not have cornering lights (AFAIK). The W212 with LED DRLs has separate bulbs for cornering lights (within the main light unit, just like the W221) but the 204 does not.

The 204 has been available with the Intelligent Light System as an option since last summer - this gave DRLs in the lower front bumper in place of the foglamps. Why not just use the parts from that? also where do the front foglamps go in such a vehicle? do you simply not get them or were there different headlights with the fogs included? I know the new facelift 204 has the foglamps in the main headlamp unit, but what about the pre-facelift with DRLs?

S

 

[st13phil]

My personal thoughts are that in most conditions we don't need additional lighting at all, just drivers need to remain vigilant to the task of driving, instead of their phone, music, coffee..(add as appropriate)..

I totally agree. The real issue is that a large number of drivers have such p*ss-poor observation skills that they really don't need any additional distractions.

I don't think it's really necessary, but maybe motorbikes should have flashing DRL then as a flashing light is more noticeable.

Flashing lights are indeed more noticeable, but then something else would come into play. On bumpy roads short wheelbase vehicles like motorcycles change their attitude quite significantly and the number of bikers who have had someone pull out on them because "I thought you were flashing me to pull out" is legion. Actually having a flashing light on the front of a bike would undoubtedly make that worse

Wouldn't the height difference make a motorcycle stand out and does it need to.
Surely a DRL indicates a vehicle is present, it doesn't matter what kind of vehicle it is as the next second of observation will reveal that.

It's the masking effect that's the problem. Brouwer's research never placed the motorcycle in front of the car, always next to it and with a clear gap between them. Spotting two vehicles in that scenario is breathtakingly simple and it's rare (in my experience) that someone doesn't see the bike. However, with the bike twixt the observer and the following DRL-equipped car it's a different matter.

 

[john925]

they are a fact on all new cars as of now and soon will be on all lorries and buses. So we all best get used to them. Any device that helps to avoid accidents has to be a good thing. I cant see any reason why they should cause accidents to anyone

 

[john925]

I don't think it's really necessary, but maybe motorbikes should have flashing DRL then as a flashing light is more noticeable.

Wouldn't the height difference make a motorcycle stand out and does it need to.
Surely a DRL indicates a vehicle is present, it doesn't matter what kind of vehicle it is as the next second of observation will reveal that.

My personal thoughts are that in most conditions we don't need additional lighting at all, just drivers need to remain vigilant to the task of driving, instead of their phone, music, coffee..(add as appropriate)..

I aggree The height of a single LED say under the headlight on a motorbike would be easy to spot as opposed to a car

 

[st13phil]

I aggree The height of a single LED say under the headlight on a motorbike should be easy to spot as opposed to a car

Fixed that for you.

I've ridden bikes for the last 35 years and always ride defensively. The bike I ride is a big tourer, and I ride with the headlights on dip beam. I use all the techniques to improve visibility (like changing road position on approach to junctions) but you'd be amazed at some of the people who have pulled out on me over the years. A very real problem that is well researched and well documented is that people have great difficulty judging the distance away and speed of approach of a vehicle which has a single light source on the front of it - i.e. pretty much every motorcycle. However, as it is generally only motorcycles that drive with lights on in daylight at least they stand out from other vehicles so some conspicuity benefit is provided. However, once that single point light source disappears in a sea of other lights any benefit it did have is lost.

While you can't see any reason why they [DRL's] should cause accidents to anyone, the very real experiment in Europe involving mandatory daytime headlights (Austria 2006/7) was associated with a 12.2% increase in accidents:

• Overall: 24,850 injured (+11%) and 324 fatalities (+17%)
• Children all casualties +13%
• Cyclists all casualties 2,814 accidents + 43 %
• Motorcyclists all casualties 1,400 accidents, + 46%

Note in particular the massive increase in cycle and motorcycle casualties.

There is a significant body of research that suggests high-intensity DRL's on passenger cars will have a similar effect. Good, eh?

 

[Dieselman]

However, once that single point light source disappears in a sea of other lights any benefit it did have is lost.

The issue is that motorcycles use headlights, which are a beam of light, not a point source.as soon as the "target" driver is out of line of the beam it's is invisible, thus the motorcyclist is getting no benefit from riding with the headlight on.
A point source of light, like an LED DRL offers is much more visible and easier to judge distance of because it is less dazzling.

As we all know motorcyclist make up a significant proportion of road deaths and injuries, so maybe they should be banned....

 

[john925]

Fixed that for you.

I've ridden bikes for the last 35 years and always ride defensively. The bike I ride is a big tourer, and I ride with the headlights on dip beam. I use all the techniques to improve visibility (like changing road position on approach to junctions) but you'd be amazed at some of the people who have pulled out on me over the years. A very real problem that is well researched and well documented is that people have great difficulty judging the distance away and speed of approach of a vehicle which has a single light source on the front of it - i.e. pretty much every motorcycle. However, as it is generally only motorcycles that drive with lights on in daylight at least they stand out from other vehicles so some conspicuity benefit is provided. However, once that single point light source disappears in a sea of other lights any benefit it did have is lost.



While you can't see any reason why they [DRL's] should cause accidents to anyone, the very real experiment in Europe involving mandatory daytime headlights (Austria 2006/7) was associated with a 12.2% increase in accidents:

• Overall: 24,850 injured (+11%) and 324 fatalities (+17%)
• Children all casualties +13%
• Cyclists all casualties 2,814 accidents + 43 %
• Motorcyclists all casualties 1,400 accidents, + 46%

Note in particular the massive increase in cycle and motorcycle casualties.

There is a significant body of research that suggests high-intensity DRL's on passenger cars will have a similar effect. Good, eh?

Seems to be a lot of conflicting data regarding accident rate for and against DRL's. I dont think anything will prevent pillocks from not looking out for bikers. (being an ex one who had it happen several times) I think the increase in motor vehicles in general will naturally increase accident rates.

 

[john925]

I cant quite understand why DRL's should increase accident rates. But according to the reason for them becoming compulsory on new vehicles is based on accident rates in and around the EU !! Time will tell. But It wont help the young idiot on one of those fizzers that just came round a blind bend on my side of the road. 20 mph speed limit outside a school and he was going at god knows what speed Lucky for him I wasnt and stopped or he would have been buried in my bonnet Oh and no lights on his bike. I am sorry to say he is very likely to have someone pull out in front of him one day. His speed and all black outfit is asking for it to happen

 

[Dieselman]

I am sorry to say he is very likely to have someone pull out in front of him one day. His speed and all black outfit is asking for it to happen

Nature's way...

 

[SteveSJS]

There are restrictions (Not sure exactly off the top of my head) that mean they have to be in certain positions - think no more than 400mm from outside edge of car and no less than 250mm from the road.
But I stand to be corrected on that...

 

[cikko]

I'm with St13 - nice bike BTW

There have been numerous studies surrounding motorbikes with lights ON/OFF during daytime. All studies conflict the ON/OFF argument.

My own thought is to leave it to the individual - if they wish to ride daytime running lights - or not, so be it. IIRC there was proof some time ago that headlights ON during the day would allow another road user would SEE a motorbike approaching. The problem surrounds misconception of speed/judgement of distance - as most (non-motorbike roadusers) are oblivious to what's happening around them and have myopic vision at best (rant over). To counter the argument about headlight OFF, was that road users didn't see the motorbike as easily, however COULD judge speed/distance accurately.

So I rode with my headlight OFF.

I felt safer if that I assume everyone out there is an a**hole and therefore I can make changes to my behaviour/riding style to suit.

I think that it should be illegal to drive any vehicle on the road without having riding experience... that would sort A LOT of 'observational' problems :yes

Oh and my opinion on daytime lights today - I suggested to the Government 5 years ago that if daytime running lights were to be used and in conjunction with new cars having them fitted - to avoid the 'blending-in effect', why not force the colour of the daytime run light for motorbikes to be yellow/amber?

That may give myopia driver a sense of confidence that the light they see approaching is a motorbike and can pull out directly infront of them with little concern for their own safety - but in the knowledge they may well cause considerable damage to the biker sliding/rolling/propelled down the road. (j/k)

 

[john925]

There are restrictions (Not sure exactly off the top of my head) that mean they have to be in certain positions - think no more than 400mm from outside edge of car and no less than 250mm from the road.
But I stand to be corrected on that...

That is correct. and there is a maximum height

 

[john925]

Give all motor cyclists blue flashing lights They would be seen then !!!!! It would also suit the ones who undertake between vehicles on motorways at high speed. I know I will get flack for saying that. But it happens all the time. as an ex biker and ex truck driver it beggars belief what risks some riders take. I have had bikes under take me between my truck and the one I was overtaking. !!!!!!!!!

 

[Howard]

Wash your mouth out !!

It's well known that motorcyclists can do no wrong and all motorcycle accidents are caused by the idiot in the car , not the guy on the bike ....

 

[john925]

That is correct. and there is a maximum height

I found this

 

[cikko]

Give all motor cyclists blue flashing lights They would be seen then !!!!! It would also suit the ones who undertake between vehicles on motorways at high speed. I know I will get flack for saying that. But it happens all the time. as an ex biker and ex truck driver it beggars belief what risks some riders take. I have had bikes under take me between my truck and the one I was overtaking. !!!!!!!!!

hey John,

I had a blue headlight cover on my bike once upon a time. It was illegal and I removed after hassle with the law... but it worked a treat!

In fact - the proof was the wife driving on the mototrway ahead of me (I stopped for fuel) and slowly caught her up. She said she could see me WAY back - for about (her guess) 1.5 to 2miles back in her rear view mirror!!!!! Now that's what I call a result!

I don't understand the risk taking of being BETWEEN 2 trucks

I do understand undertaking slow moving vehicles in the outside lane - need Ben Hurr spurs on the offside of the car to "chew up" anyone stuck in the outside lane

Rant/

 

[chris846]

I have ridden a bike for 25 years. I don't use any lights during the day. I ride as if other road users can't see me anyway.
DRLs are all wrong. As some of the previous posts indicate - where will it all end?
Why legislate to make life easy for the inattentive drivers who can't be bothered to look properly before a manouvre.

By all means use lights during the day if you want. But never mandatory...that's just breeding drivers who'll think, "It's his/her fault, they didn't have their lights on."

And as for motorcyclists approaching other road users at Mach 6, with full beams flickering, is it any wonder that some morons pull out in front of them when their approach speed is so difficult to judge.

 

[john925]

undertaking (in more ways than one )

hey John,

I had a blue headlight cover on my bike once upon a time. It was illegal and I removed after hassle with the law... but it worked a treat!

In fact - the proof was the wife driving on the mototrway ahead of me (I stopped for fuel) and slowly caught her up. She said she could see me WAY back - for about (her guess) 1.5 to 2miles back in her rear view mirror!!!!! Now that's what I call a result!

I don't understand the risk taking of being BETWEEN 2 trucks

I do understand undertaking slow moving vehicles in the outside lane - need Ben Hurr spurs on the offside of the car to "chew up" anyone stuck in the outside lane

Well undertaking between two trucks has to be the most stupid thing a motorcyclist can do. It only takes one or both of them to wander slightly and its goodbye biker and whos fault would it be ???

 

[cikko]

I have ridden a bike for 25 years. I don't use any lights during the day. I ride as if other road users can't see me anyway.
DRLs are all wrong. As some of the previous posts indicate - where will it all end?
Why legislate to make life easy for the inattentive drivers who can't be bothered to look properly before a manouvre.

By all means use lights during the day if you want. But never mandatory...that's just breeding drivers who'll think, "It's his/her fault, they didn't have their lights on."

And as for motorcyclists approaching other road users at Mach 6, with full beams flickering, is it any wonder that some morons pull out in front of them when their approach speed is so difficult to judge.

Hi Chris,

I think I'm a tad paranoid when riding - I lost my sis-in-law at a junction in Goldthorpe - female driver pulled out of junction when queue was on her side of road... she couldn't even see IF there was a flow of traffic coming along the blind side BUT because she was "waved out" by a queueing motorist - she pulled out. My sis-in-law smashed into the side of her car and bounced off a bus stop and slumped against a shop window/wall. DOA at hospital.

How would (in this instance a DRL help?). I agree that they are just wrong and more namby pamby cr*p from the do gooders/politicians who wish to be written down in memory of being "the politician to get XYZ law passed"... regardless of its stupidity.

Can you believe the driver got away with a 50:50 blame as sis-in-law filtered to the front of a queue at the junction(not an illegal move) and then when lights changed to green - she pulled away. BANG!

Off duty Police were in the front car and saw everything too.

It was deemed that the rider MUST have been partially to blame as she didn't stop (depsite the light turning green and the Policemen stating she was travelling slowly).

Worst still - it was her home village and her 2 sons and my Brother pass this point of road EVERY day of their lives.

 

[john925]

I am sorry but the arguments against compulsory anything to do with road safety just dont stand up. If any legislation saves one single life its worth it. How many more would die each year with crash helmets, seat belts air bags. Plus its not just a case of taking away your individuals rights to kill or badly injure yourself. Its also about the cost to the countrys health and emergency services. I owe my life to a crash helmet. I hope I never have to owe it to a seat belt or air bag. I find all the objections to Daytime running lights more to do with anti legislation than valid safety reasons