Classics May be Banned

[Londonscottish]

We've been there, many times.

A 5 litre 'weekend car' that does 1000 miles a year is much less harmful to the environment than a modern 2 litre car doing 12,000 miles a year. So which should be hit with the higher tax?

I have a 4.3 V8 which does about 6000 miles a year

My wife has a 1.6 Clio which has averaged under 900 mile pa over the last two years.

We walk everywhere and/or use public transport.

We are the first people we know to completely trash a Bugaboo baby buggy - in 3.5 years it probably did more miles than the Clio!

Meanwhile my neighbours in their "green" woodburners and hybrids are racking up huge miles. Need a paper. Get in the car. Need some milk. Car. Johnny needs to go to school. Car. etc etc etc

I am the greenest AMG owner in West London and a hell of a lot greener that most of my wood burning neighbours

 

[RoseTattoo]

I see a number of issues here.
1. Given that classics are a popular niche in UK and overall add an infinitesimal amount to pollution it would seem to be politically dumb. For that reason I would think that as some have said this is more mischief making.
2. Having spent much of the last week accompanying tourist friends around London. It was around three years since their last visit and several things stood out form their comments:
- the whole city is much cleaner than ever
- the buses are now first class
- one hardly ever sees any 'old bangers' being driven around the central areas.
3. Outside London, the standard of driving was thought to be high but there appeared to be a lot (relatively) of breakdowns of cars that looked like they could never pass an MOT.

 

[Ade B]

I have read (probably in that oracle of truth MCN) that many fatal RTAs with bikes involve older 'born again' bikers who stick their 150bhp sports bike into a dry stone wall as its a bit quicker than the BSA Bantam they had in the 60s.

Other than that its probably Mercedes drivers hitting them on junctions because their detectobiketronic had blown a fuse that morning or they were distracted by a flashing ABS light.



Ade

 

[recycled]

I see a number of issues here.
1. Given that classics are a popular niche in UK and overall add an infinitesimal amount to pollution it would seem to be politically dumb. For that reason I would think that as some have said this is more mischief making.
2. Having spent much of the last week accompanying tourist friends around London. It was around three years since their last visit and several things stood out form their comments:
- the whole city is much cleaner than ever
- the buses are now first class
- one hardly ever sees any 'old bangers' being driven around the central areas.
3. Outside London, the standard of driving was thought to be high but there appeared to be a lot (relatively) of breakdowns of cars that looked like they could never pass an MOT.

your friends must have visited ages ago.
having been there throughout easter the city is no way cleaner. just the same. i never saw any breakdown but there were bangers and new cars side by side central and out of. the buses may be newer and cleaner but having seen public transport in mainland europe, the system is still rubbish. the times are non existent and the bus lanes are very badly designed as no priority is given to public transport.

 

[Ted]

I have read (probably in that oracle of truth MCN) that many fatal RTAs with bikes involve older 'born again' bikers who stick their 150bhp sports bike into a dry stone wall as its a bit quicker than the BSA Bantam they had in the 60s.

Ade

Hey!
You talking about me?!

 

[st13phil]

Some laugh at the prospect that motorbikes might one day be banned but the case for doing so is remarkably strong.

Only if you believe that people need to be protected from themselves. I don't subscribe to that view, and will defend my right to not be protected from myself by a bunch of people who wouldn't recognise one end of a motorcycle from the other.

A huge proportion (> 50%) of motorcycle crashes are directly attributable to other road users either violating the motorcyclists right of way, or simply driving into them. The same is probably true of many car crashes, but the consequences of most car crashes aren't the maiming or death of the "innocent" party. Once again, bad driving is to blame but hey, lets not try to fix that problem because it's too difficult: lets ban the one who's the most vulnerable from the road instead.

hawk20: I don't know what your view is on motorcycles, so this is in no way an attack on you.

 

[jimti]

it was a load of tosh the story was started to scare people it was never going to be considered

Would that include Mayor Ken not considering it at least for London, even if he never thought of it before, I bet he will be thinking about it now if he has heard about the petition. Maybe not a ban, more likely a heavy charge

 

[ALFIE CONN]

We have gone a bit off topic but i think London IS less polluted.

Not sure if it is because of the congestion charge (Roads are now supposedly, used as much as before the C.C came in) or because vehicles are MUCH cleaner?

 

[hawk20]

- one hardly ever sees any 'old bangers' being driven around the central areas.
.

Ah, so the Socialist dream of pricing the working class off the roads is working well then.

 

[RoseTattoo]

your friends must have visited ages ago.
having been there throughout easter the city is no way cleaner. just the same. i never saw any breakdown but there were bangers and new cars side by side central and out of. the buses may be newer and cleaner but having seen public transport in mainland europe, the system is still rubbish. the times are non existent and the bus lanes are very badly designed as no priority is given to public transport.

They were quite emphatic about the improvement - cleaner, less polluted, easier to get around, less 'tat' everywhere.
But let's just say that, like Japan, we bring in restrictions on older cars, the assumption that several have made is that it will price some buyers out of the market. How? Will not the cars that remain in the active pool depreciate much more rapidly so that a car with a life of only one year remaining will have almost no value?

 

[RoseTattoo]

Ah, so the Socialist dream of pricing the working class off the roads is working well then.

Was it George Orwell who referred to your sorts of claims as double-think?

 

[ant500sl]

According to a study by Volvo a car becomes carbon neutral after 17 years! This is based on the energy used to build the car in the first place.

Additionally cars use up many natural resources which are in very short supply, take the platinum used in the cats for example which is now priced at several thousand dollars per ounce!

Surely the enviromentalists should be trying to get us all running around in classics?

 

[hawk20]

But let's just say that, like Japan, we bring in restrictions on older cars, the assumption that several have made is that it will price some buyers out of the market. How? Will not the cars that remain in the active pool depreciate much more rapidly so that a car with a life of only one year remaining will have almost no value?

Yes, now keep going with that logic. So a nine year old Merc will be almost worthless instead of worth several thousands as now. SO? Depreciation will be much bigger and that is the main cost of running a car. So yes, some will be priced out.

 

[Ron . B.]

This would also hit every not so well off family in the UK.

I do not think that any government would try this

They have actually ,here in Auastralia where there has been a constant battle to own modified cars and old cars for over 30 years. The push has been from the major manufacturers ,none of whom have any Australian shareholders ,and various politicians over the decades keen to make their mark.
The most obvious was the push a few years ago to ban the importation of japanese used cars and the total ban on used diesel engines ( used by farmers etc to power pumps and so on ) the excuse being that these OLD cars ( average age ...3 years ) was that they were polluters and couldn't be good for our environment .Of course if you only want to buy a fully optioned cheap japanese car you wont want to buy an expensive under optioned Holden of Falcon will you?

 

[chriswt]

Are you saying that as a biker about cars? most of the accidents are caused by blind old buggers pulling out on us........................a good argument for taking peoples cars off them when they hit 65.

It was only a lighthearted comment but if anything it was as a pedestrian about bikes!!

3 years ago a friend of mind was knocked off his bike by an olde lady who pulled out infront of him.

Problem was that my mate was speeding in the 30 zone and overtaking the car that had stopped to let the lady out of the junction. I'd say both bikers and drivers have equal responsibility when it comes to awareness and speed.

My old man is 72 and is a heck of a lot safer on the road than my bike owning mates who are in their mid to late twenties!!

Last wednesday I watched to 'mature' guys on bikes having a quick race in a quite 40 zone but as they came to a bend in the road on of the riders locked up and flew off his bike. The rider ended up in someones front garden and the bike slide across the pavement into a tree. Thankfully the guy got up again sharping and ran back to his bike with his pride seriously dented. Luckily no one else was dented too.

 

[Shude]

Yes, now keep going with that logic. So a nine year old Merc will be almost worthless instead of worth several thousands as now. SO? Depreciation will be much bigger and that is the main cost of running a car. So yes, some will be priced out.

You can forget your nice PCP deals when the cars are literally worthless by the end of the period!

 

[hawk20]

You can forget your nice PCP deals when the cars are literally worthless by the end of the period!

PCPs are usually for 3 years from new. The proposed ban would be for cars over 10 years old.

 

[Shude]

I'm sure you'd be charged to dispose of your old car for recycling at 10 years old. Where are all these old cars going to be stored? How fast can manufacturers make cars, bearing in mind that they need to make about 3x more than they currently car doing if we'd have to replace all those 10+ years old?

PCPs are usually for 3 years from new. The proposed ban would be for cars over 10 years old.

The effect of reducing a car's value to zero at 10 years will be felt at all ages of the car. That said in the UK the average car is only worth something like 45% of it's new list price at 3 years old so it probably can't get much worse!

EDIT:
Big saloons from Alfa Romeo, Vauxhall, Renault, Citroen and Peugeot already lose 80-90% of their value in the first three years anyway so they're already enjoying that situation apparently!