Diesel drivers being lined up to take the hit.

[David404]

Folks, us diesel drives are being lined up to take the hit. Lets start fighting back, write to your MP, campaign for a reasoned debate, reasonable solutions, recognise the problem is one largely made by the Government and that they need to come up with a workable solution that produces real improvements and doesn't simply pass the cost back to the motorist. Post on other motoring forums, write your MP make noise, fight back, don’t let the 'dirty diesel' message become embedded.

Now don’t get me wrong there are issues with pollutants from diesels and we should be encouraging moves to newer and less polluting vehicles diesel and petrol and we should be looking to reduce emissions even more in the future. But let's face it the Government are trying to figure out a way to pass the bill to the diesel car driver whilst claiming to be compensating us but actually taking more money off us and decimate the value of our cars.

Let's not forget why we're here:
• Through the tax system the government encouraged us all to drive diesel cars. At the time the concern was climate change and Carbon Dioxide emissions were top of the agenda.
• We all know that the official economy and emissions tests fail miserably to replicate the results achieved in real life and who set the test standards? The Government.

We need a more balanced debate, recognition that diesel does for the medium term have a place:

• Diesel engines are more efficient, in that they offer a better return from the natural resources consumed
• Like for like emit less Carbon Dioxide then the equilivent petrol and CO2 is a leading cause of global warming.
• New Euro 5/6 cars are (according to the official tests) way less polluting then older engines.

A scrappage scheme that operates against purchase of new vehicles only isn't the answer to getting older cars off the road quickly. The people running the old cars are doing so because they can't afford to buy a new car. If the government gave me a full rebate on what I paid for my W211 I still can't afford a new W213.

The big and quick returns are to be had by removing the older most polluting vehicles off the road as quickly as possible. To do this we need a generous scrappage scheme, one that operates against new and second hand vehicles. A scheme that took a Euro 1/2 car off the road permantely to be replaced with an existing Euro 4 or better vehicle would produce environmental returns. When we've got the Euro 1/2 cars out of the system, lets expand the scrappage to encourage Euro 3/4 owners to upgrade to Euro 5/6 cars.

Noticed how the dirty diesel mob always pick on pollution levels around schools, playing the 'protect our children' card. So let's have a campaign to stop the 'school run' perhaps the school run contributes to that local pollution. Typically a short run, engine cold, just the conditions where engines pollute the most…

Let's recognise that buying a car is a long term commitment, most of us can't afford to swap cars every year, we buy a car and effectively make a commitment to be with that car for 3 to 5 years.

The government drive towards diesel tilted the market to diesel, the manufacturers expanded the diesel range to the point where in many cases the supply of second hand petrol cars just isn't there. I drive a 2009 E320 (W211) I ran a search on the MB web site for second user E class. They list 1146 cars. Only 33 of which are petrol and of those 19 were E63s and 8 E43s. Fantastic cars but hardly what most would consider as an average family run about! Not exactly a low carbon footprint either. So out of 1146 E class cars available nationwide on the MB web site just 0.5% could be considered sensible family cars. It will take a while for those 1113 diesel E class cars to work their way out of the system.

 

[CabrioDave]

Us are being lined up?

WE are being lined up, surely.

 

[Alex225]

The main thing that would stitch up the older diesel drivers would be if they suddenly increased the road tax on them. Otherwise me owning my E320 (W211) will be the same regardless of the scrappage scheme.

Let's face it, they offered people a decent part ex on cars a few years back yet we still see older cars on the road. Just a sad thing that I've not doubt a few classics were lost in the process.

I do agree with you though OP, it's not really helpful for people who don't want to spend out on a new car to offer a scrappage price on something like a W211. There's a reason I only spent £4k on it, I'm not prepared to spend out on a new car as this is my workhorse.

 

[Headhurts]

I purchased my E350 new in May last year it is an EU6 rated car and hand on heart at the time I purchased this car I believed this was a reasonably responsible buy.

Of course I was buying a luxury car and mpg was not top of my list but as it was a retirement present to myself and I would not be doing huge mileage I was not too concerned.

My car is the S212 and I generally do a couple of trips to France each year, that said I have not reached 6000 miles yet but none of my trips are urban mostly B roads.

There are still very few petrol Mercedes other than the AMG range in comparison to diesel cars and so far as I can see reading reviews there are still lots of diesel cars and they are often the recommended purchase by the reviewers.

Vehicle drivers are very easy targets and quite often there is hopeless public transport unless you live in a city, rural locations like mine there are no trains and buses run very rarely.

The op has a point do we just bend over and take it or maybe complain/start a petition.


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[Driver15]

If China and America made cut backs in pollution levels, we could all drive v12's and v8's.

Sometimes it feels pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things that the UK are screwed over while the rest of the world can do what they want with no financial impact.

In the UK we need to pay 5p for a carrier bag.. in Walmart in the USA they just double bag your shopping for free....

 

[wu56Shoozz]

Have a look at This..

The Engine That Powers The World - Mark Evans

Now be fore we all get on our soapboxes, "Heavy Oil" as its rightful name is the first off the catalytic cracker at the refinery.. meaning that its cheaper, yes cheaper to produce.. now, would it not be better to change the fuel rather than scrap the car?? Diesels have been around since the 1890's and have powered almost everything in its path, from boats to trains, planes, power generation so its not just a new invention.. but here's the kicker IT CAN RUN ON ALMOST ANY FUEL CHIP FAT INCLUDED Therefore change the fuel, not the car.. as the previous OP originally said most of us can't afford to swap cars every year, we buy a car and effectively make a commitment to be with that car for 3 to 5 years. So lets change the fuel.. not the car/engine!

 

[lfckeeper]

With all the commercial vehicles, boats, trains etc etc ... isn't going after the diesel car like attacking a battleship with a slingshot and some peanuts........in a dinghy.

 

[Londonscottish]

I purchased my E350 new in May last year it is an EU6 rated car and hand on heart at the time I purchased this car I believed this was a reasonably responsible buy.

Of course I was buying a luxury car and mpg was not top of my list but as it was a retirement present to myself and I would not be doing huge mileage I was not too concerned.

My car is the S212 and I generally do a couple of trips to France each year, that said I have not reached 6000 miles yet but none of my trips are urban mostly B roads.

There are still very few petrol Mercedes other than the AMG range in comparison to diesel cars and so far as I can see reading reviews there are still lots of diesel cars and they are often the recommended purchase by the reviewers.

Vehicle drivers are very easy targets and quite often there is hopeless public transport unless you live in a city, rural locations like mine there are no trains and buses run very rarely.

The op has a point do we just bend over and take it or maybe complain/start a petition.


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Seems like a very sensible buy to me. That's perfect use for a diesel.

It's a bit draconian but I can see why they're being discouraged in places like London where there are lots of diesel cars doing short journeys not warmed up in stop start traffic.

Not a good use for that sort of technology to be fair.

 

[a111r]

Have a look at This..

The Engine That Powers The World - Mark Evans

Now be fore we all get on our soapboxes, "Heavy Oil" as its rightful name is the first off the catalytic cracker at the refinery.. meaning that its cheaper, yes cheaper to produce.. now, would it not be better to change the fuel rather than scrap the car?? Diesels have been around since the 1890's and have powered almost everything in its path, from boats to trains, planes, power generation so its not just a new invention.. but here's the kicker IT CAN RUN ON ALMOST ANY FUEL CHIP FAT INCLUDED Therefore change the fuel, not the car.. as the previous OP originally said most of us can't afford to swap cars every year, we buy a car and effectively make a commitment to be with that car for 3 to 5 years. So lets change the fuel.. not the car/engine!

Bio fuels are good, but what does one make it from, on a massive scale? Algae ain't gonna do it, to date.
Bio fuels are also not good for NOX emissions, a current bete noir. Having a higher combustion temp. due to the O2 chemically within, sadly.
Then there's the slight issue of less reasons to have wars.

Conspiracists will tell one that Rudolph Diesel, whose engine was designed to run on peanut oil, was assassinated by the 'nascent' petro-chem Industry. Pushed him off a boat.

BTW, 100K on biodiesel, made from 80% carbon-neutral wvo.

 

[tylerdurden]

Really don't understand today's market.

New cars are apparently flying off the shelf. Most I see around are diesel.

Yet recently there seems to be a big diesel backlash.

Was hoping to get a new e350cdi W213 but as it would be a long term investment I'm really not sure.

On top of which , petrol alternatives are few and far between.

Crazy situation

 

[219]

The people running the old cars are doing so because they can't afford to buy a new car.

The big and quick returns are to be had by removing the older most polluting vehicles off the road as quickly as possible.

While the above may be true for many , there are lots of us who could afford new or newer cars but choose not to , for various reasons .

I like my 'classic' models , which are very different to the masses of cloned cars on the roads ; and I hear colleagues talking about their monthly lease payments , and BIK tax bills , which amount to many hundreds of pounds a month , al for the 'privilege' of driving around in some piece of tin they will never own - that , to me , sounds crazy when I can buy and own a car outright for only one or two of their monthly outgoings , and mine are better cars to boot !

As for the oldest and most polluting vehicles on the roads - these are trucks and buses - cars are only a fraction of the problem .

 

[Londonscottish]

Really don't understand today's market.

New cars are apparently flying off the shelf. Most I see around are diesel.

Yet recently there seems to be a big diesel backlash.

The legislation in London only applies to pre-Euro 6 diesels so anything less that three years old or whatever will be fine.

In my case rather than shell out £14-15K for a 7 year old Euro 5 CGI I'd have to pay nearly twice as much for a 3 year old Euro 6 CDI.

 

[Londonscottish]

While the above may be true for many , there are lots of us who could afford new or newer cars but choose not to , for various reasons .

I like my 'classic' models , which are very different to the masses of cloned cars on the roads ; and I hear colleagues talking about their monthly lease payments , and BIK tax bills , which amount to many hundreds of pounds a month , al for the 'privilege' of driving around in some piece of tin they will never own - that , to me , sounds crazy when I can buy and own a car outright for only one or two of their monthly outgoings , and mine are better cars to boot !
.

That's a great way to live. I was recently made redundant and put on gardening leave. The guy who did it drives an 18 month old Range Rover. takes holidays in Mauritious and Dubai and general spends lavishly and obviously. I think he struggled as to why I was so relaxed about the whole thing.

But the simple fact is I'm not geared up and don't have any expensive consumer loans. I've got my trusty 12 year old 211 to take me anywhere at the drop of a hat and the wife has a MY 2000 Clio to do the short hops.

I waved goodbye, headed to Halfords and set about valeting both of them. They're not worth much but they're both fine, fit for purpose and 100% mine.

It's a liberating feeling.

EDIT; I should add that until relatively recently I had some eye-watering leverage on the go thanks to a bit of amateur property speculation so I know what massive debt feels like. Even more reason not to tie myself down with expensive metal. Each to their own and all that of course. I'm just at a stage in life (50+) where I could do without the stress.

 

[gr1nch]

I'm here on the big day (1st March) at the Mercedes Grimsby hand over event. Out of 16 x 2017 reg cars there, 13 are diesel.

P.S. See the new reg 2017 post for more detail.

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[Delayed Steve]

I'm here on the big day (1st March) at the Mercedes Grimsby hand over event. Out of 16 x 2017 reg cars there, 13 are diesel.

P.S. See the new reg 2017 post for more detail.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

New diesel cars are ok for now.. It's older diesel cars in the firing line ,cars driven by people that can't afford a new car and were probably pushed in to diesel by the used market being flooded with them!
You can bury your head but when Chris Grayling warns people to think before buying a diesel ,well it's not looking good .

 

[Yugguy]

Retroactively punishing us older diesel drivers, of which there are many, could be political suicide.

We'll be even less likely to be able to swap if huge tax hikes devalue our cars.

 

[gr1nch]

New diesel cars are ok for now.. It's older diesel cars in the firing line ,cars driven by people that can't afford a new car and were probably pushed in to diesel by the used market being flooded with them!
You can bury your head but when Chris Grayling warns people to think before buying a diesel ,well it's not looking good .

No doubt, future models will always be designed to be better environmentally. And all of us buying new diesel cars old, well they'll be the old ones in time. Personally I prefer the simplicity in design of diesel engines. The last five years being trouble free and better economically too.

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[Dryce]

Personally I prefer the simplicity in design of diesel engines.

Diesels used to be simple.

Then about 15 years ago they became what the are today. Direct injection systems and multiple turbochargers and a bunch of sensors and electronics got added. Then we have things like DPFs and Adblue setups downstream of them.

Not so simple.

 

[Londonscottish]

Diesels used to be simple.

Then about 15 years ago they became what the are today. Direct injection systems and multiple turbochargers and a bunch of sensors and electronics got added. Then we have things like DPFs and Adblue setups downstream of them.

Not so simple.

Diesels used to be slow.

Then they got a bit faster. And a bit more pollute-y.

Then they got a lot faster. And a lot more pollute-y.

So they got loads of (often troublesome) gubbins strapped on to try to stem the words of the pollution.

In any iteration they've never been good in cities.

But they's always been good warmed up on a steady throttle. On motorways, a roads and dual carriageways.

Horses for courses.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

Interesting. I'm still hearing "the government made me buy diesel", but that's something I don't buy. The government do lots of things to try to persuade us to act one way or another, but most of the time their efforts get ignored. Why? Because it doesn't suit us to take notice of their encouragement. But in this case we let our pockets do the talking whilst failing to don our thinking caps. Not unreasonably we thought we were taking the most economical route.

It was a bit like seeing the massive label on a 50" TV saying 40% discount, so immediately buying it. Not until we got home with our "bargain" and checked prices on the Internet Would we have seen that we could have bought it even cheaper. But most of us didn't look at those Internet prices so we carried on enjoying our "cheaper" TVs. We were happy, and that's all that matters.


So now we're discovering that perhaps our sound financial decision to buy a diesel wasn't quite what we'd hoped. So let's blame the government. After all, we blame them for everything else. Let's insist on compensation for them bullying us into buying diesels. Let's grab a big chunk of their money that they'd only otherwise fritter away on things like the NHS, social care and policing.

But hang on. What about those who chose not to wear blinkers and instead bought petrol cars? For many years now they've been paying far higher amounts for their road fund licences. Shouldn't they too get compensation? After all, they haven't been churning out the high levels of toxic NOx but they've still been penalised. Furthermore, I've read many times on this very forum how diesel cars have depreciated far slower than petrol versions, so shouldn't they be compensated for those losses too?

Whilst talking about diesel emissions, very many diesel car owners say that commercial vehicles are far worse polluters and should be acted upon before attacking cars. Well things may not be as we think. A new study has shown that NOx emissions from Euro 6 diesel cars are more than double modern diesel trucks. So with diesel cars vastly outnumbering diesel trucks, perhaps the emphasis is in the right place?
http://http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleet-industry-news/2017/01/09/nox-emissions-from-euro-6-diesel-cars-more-than-double-modern-diesel-trucks-according-to-new-study