Engine Maintenance
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Dieselman
Mess would be done by little holes drilled in the back of cam lobes destined to pressure lubricate the valve train. Modern engines don't have a pool of oil as this type of lubrication e less load bearing and more power consuming.
There could not be any metal scoring in the Slick50 test as parts would be separated by water. That's why they dared do the test. When you run an engine with no oil, the white metal of the bearing's surface is what's holding things. Yes it runs fine but it doesn't mean that there is no wear and permanent damage to these and other oil starved moving parts.
Cylinders and pistons are the only engine parts designed to work with boundary lubrication where a monomolecular film holds things apart but even these have to be renewed and fed.
Don't go to bed with a thermometer unless you have a temperature but engines where and are designed to work best at their service temperature. Anything below or above means more energy and/or wear. Engines have interacting parts made of different metals that have different expansion coefficients. Gaps are only at nominal values at their design operating temperature.
VI tells you how the oil behaves with temperature. Higher value means there is less variation. If your theory was right, then the mineral oil with lesser IV was best as it would whitstand more load when hot...
You cannot trust SAE viscosity grade. That's old days stuff. If that was right, Mobil 1 (there I go again...) 0W40 viscosity at 40 ºC would be the same as Mobil Super 4T 15W40 at also 40 ºC, right? How come the first has 80 cSt and the mineral has 107 cSt? Also if SAE would be OK to judge an oil no one could use their cars at ambient temperature below 0 ºC at best.
Modern oils are completely different from the old stuff and most of the time they are far better that the oil needed for the ocasion. Lubricants are made of a base stuff with additives to give better this or that. I would be glad to use any synthetic oil in the market that met the manufacturer's specifications. However, there is a difference between oil manufacturers. I use Mobil 1 in my cars because it has a higher VI than any other that I have found available. In other words, 99.99 % of the time any oil would do for me. If and when that 0.01% situation happens, I will have the best option that I found available to me.
My research was done ... never mind. Let me collect some bonuses from Slick50 and Mobil
Mess would be done by little holes drilled in the back of cam lobes destined to pressure lubricate the valve train. Modern engines don't have a pool of oil as this type of lubrication e less load bearing and more power consuming.
There could not be any metal scoring in the Slick50 test as parts would be separated by water. That's why they dared do the test. When you run an engine with no oil, the white metal of the bearing's surface is what's holding things. Yes it runs fine but it doesn't mean that there is no wear and permanent damage to these and other oil starved moving parts.
Cylinders and pistons are the only engine parts designed to work with boundary lubrication where a monomolecular film holds things apart but even these have to be renewed and fed.
Don't go to bed with a thermometer unless you have a temperature but engines where and are designed to work best at their service temperature. Anything below or above means more energy and/or wear. Engines have interacting parts made of different metals that have different expansion coefficients. Gaps are only at nominal values at their design operating temperature.
VI tells you how the oil behaves with temperature. Higher value means there is less variation. If your theory was right, then the mineral oil with lesser IV was best as it would whitstand more load when hot...
You cannot trust SAE viscosity grade. That's old days stuff. If that was right, Mobil 1 (there I go again...) 0W40 viscosity at 40 ºC would be the same as Mobil Super 4T 15W40 at also 40 ºC, right? How come the first has 80 cSt and the mineral has 107 cSt? Also if SAE would be OK to judge an oil no one could use their cars at ambient temperature below 0 ºC at best.
Modern oils are completely different from the old stuff and most of the time they are far better that the oil needed for the ocasion. Lubricants are made of a base stuff with additives to give better this or that. I would be glad to use any synthetic oil in the market that met the manufacturer's specifications. However, there is a difference between oil manufacturers. I use Mobil 1 in my cars because it has a higher VI than any other that I have found available. In other words, 99.99 % of the time any oil would do for me. If and when that 0.01% situation happens, I will have the best option that I found available to me.
My research was done ... never mind. Let me collect some bonuses from Slick50 and Mobil
Dieselman
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Here is an article about slick50
You are correct about the Vi, I was confusing that with viscosity band, and that still follows, the wider the grades the greater the risk of polymer failure.
As you can see HERE all the Vi you mention are well in excess of what you require for the engine.
HERE is an article relating to additives and higher viscosity oils. Higher viscosity gives better protection due to less shear under load.
Excerpt from article about RUNNING WITH NO OIL
The Infamous "No Oil" Demo
At at least three major motorcycle rallies this past year, we have witnessed live demonstrations put on to demonstrate the effectiveness of certain oil additives. The demonstrators would have a bench-mounted engine which they would fill with oil and a prescribed dose of their "miracle additive." After running the engine for a while they would stop it, drain out the oil and start it up again. Instant magic! The engine would run perfectly well for hours on end, seemingly proving the effectiveness of the additive which had supposedly "coated" the inside of the engine so well it didn't even need the oil to run. In one case, we saw this done with an actual motorcycle, which would be ridden around the parking lot after having its oil drained. A pretty convincing demonstration - until you know the facts.
Since some of these demonstrations were conducted using Briggs and Stratton engines, the Briggs and Stratton Company itself decided to run a similar, but somewhat more scientific, experiment. Taking two brand-new, identical engines straight off their assembly line, they set them up for bench-testing. The only difference was that one had the special additive included with its oil and the other did not. Both were operated for 20 hours before being shut down and having the oil drained from them. Then both were started up again and allowed to run for another 20 straight hours. Neither engine seemed to have any problem performing this "minor miracle." After the second 20-hour run, both engines were completely torn down and inspected by the company's engineers. What they found was that both engines suffered from scored crankpin bearings, but the engine treated with the additive also suffered from heavy cylinder bore damage that was not evident on the untreated engine. This points out once again the inherent problem with particulate oil additives: They can cause oil starvation. This is particularly true in the area of piston rings, where there is a critical need for adequate oil flow. In practically all of the reports and studies on oil additives, and particularly those involving suspended solids like PTFE, this has been reported as a major area of engine damage.
Lastly, living in such a warm climate why do you need such a wide viscosity range for your oil.? It won't provide better protection but runs greater risk of shear down.
You are correct about the Vi, I was confusing that with viscosity band, and that still follows, the wider the grades the greater the risk of polymer failure.
As you can see HERE all the Vi you mention are well in excess of what you require for the engine.
HERE is an article relating to additives and higher viscosity oils. Higher viscosity gives better protection due to less shear under load.
Excerpt from article about RUNNING WITH NO OIL
The Infamous "No Oil" Demo
At at least three major motorcycle rallies this past year, we have witnessed live demonstrations put on to demonstrate the effectiveness of certain oil additives. The demonstrators would have a bench-mounted engine which they would fill with oil and a prescribed dose of their "miracle additive." After running the engine for a while they would stop it, drain out the oil and start it up again. Instant magic! The engine would run perfectly well for hours on end, seemingly proving the effectiveness of the additive which had supposedly "coated" the inside of the engine so well it didn't even need the oil to run. In one case, we saw this done with an actual motorcycle, which would be ridden around the parking lot after having its oil drained. A pretty convincing demonstration - until you know the facts.
Since some of these demonstrations were conducted using Briggs and Stratton engines, the Briggs and Stratton Company itself decided to run a similar, but somewhat more scientific, experiment. Taking two brand-new, identical engines straight off their assembly line, they set them up for bench-testing. The only difference was that one had the special additive included with its oil and the other did not. Both were operated for 20 hours before being shut down and having the oil drained from them. Then both were started up again and allowed to run for another 20 straight hours. Neither engine seemed to have any problem performing this "minor miracle." After the second 20-hour run, both engines were completely torn down and inspected by the company's engineers. What they found was that both engines suffered from scored crankpin bearings, but the engine treated with the additive also suffered from heavy cylinder bore damage that was not evident on the untreated engine. This points out once again the inherent problem with particulate oil additives: They can cause oil starvation. This is particularly true in the area of piston rings, where there is a critical need for adequate oil flow. In practically all of the reports and studies on oil additives, and particularly those involving suspended solids like PTFE, this has been reported as a major area of engine damage.
Lastly, living in such a warm climate why do you need such a wide viscosity range for your oil.? It won't provide better protection but runs greater risk of shear down.
MBManInKen
MB Enthusiast
I can't recall saying that. In fact, I operate everything about my car with care, without "slamming" anything.
I engage the engine startup sequence, then glimpse at the dash to make sure all the lights have gone out, then put the box in drive and wait for it to be engaged, then release parking brake, then release service brake and move off. That all takes several seconds, which is equal to the 5-10 seconds you mentioned. No need for further "warming up" AFAIC, and it seems Mercedes agrees.
Your post to which I replied, did not mention any specific timeframe at all, it merely gave the advice for an undefined (by you) period of warming up in cold weather. I simply pointed out that Mercedes themselves do not offer the same advice.
Each to their own, I say.
Lot's of gasoline being poured in the camp fire. Hope nobody starts putting in nitroglycerin. Carefull guys, it's Summer and forest fires are easly started...
As for you Dieselman:
Thanks for the info of no oil.
I don't use Slick50. I just remebered their add and thought it would be usefull to mention that water can be used as a lubricant in hidrodynamic bearings - in very specific and special conditions. However, if I'm not mistaken, I believe now the brand is owned by Shell Oils.
I still didn't get your point on the VI issue. I chose Mobil 1 because it has the highest VI than any other oil that I can get hold of. Also its the cheapest oil I can get
! 0W40 costs me 8,75 euros per litre - around 5.8 pounds. How much for it in Britain?
P.S. Where I live the weather is a bit not so sunny. Here in the north (Guimarães) it rains like ... Well there's a saying portuguese that this region (Minho) is heaven's potty! It can rain for a full week non-stop. In 2001 the record was 2.5 weeks non stop . I have never heard of any floods over here!
Winter is cold (-1 to 10 ºC at worst) and damp and summer is nothing like the Algarve.
The good side - and it's a very good one - is that it's the only region in the whole wide world that produces Vinho Verde:bannana: :bannana: :bannana:
As for you Dieselman:
Thanks for the info of no oil.
I don't use Slick50. I just remebered their add and thought it would be usefull to mention that water can be used as a lubricant in hidrodynamic bearings - in very specific and special conditions. However, if I'm not mistaken, I believe now the brand is owned by Shell Oils.
I still didn't get your point on the VI issue. I chose Mobil 1 because it has the highest VI than any other oil that I can get hold of. Also its the cheapest oil I can get
! 0W40 costs me 8,75 euros per litre - around 5.8 pounds. How much for it in Britain?P.S. Where I live the weather is a bit not so sunny. Here in the north (Guimarães) it rains like ... Well there's a saying portuguese that this region (Minho) is heaven's potty! It can rain for a full week non-stop. In 2001 the record was 2.5 weeks non stop
. I have never heard of any floods over here! Winter is cold (-1 to 10 ºC at worst) and damp and summer is nothing like the Algarve.
The good side - and it's a very good one - is that it's the only region in the whole wide world that produces Vinho Verde:bannana: :bannana: :bannana:
Dieselman
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I still didn't get your point on the VI issue. I chose Mobil 1 because it has the highest VI than any other oil that I can get hold of. Also its the cheapest oil I can get
The point was that the Vi is well in excess of what is required for viscosity control in a car engine, but the wider the viscosity band the greater the potential for shear down of the polymer chains.
As it's not cold in Portugal why not go for a 10W 40 instead to reduce the potential shear. You don't require the ultra cold weather viscosity that a 0W will give.
Not sure if its a good idea to be posting in this at the moment but here goes anyways.
I always say let them sit just long enough for the fast idle to drop normally only takes a few seconds anyways then engage a gear and off to go, drive the car conservatively until the thing has warmed up.
Ideally you would use the engine oil temp gauge and once the thing hits operating temp then work up the RPM's slowly once or twice then get heavy with the loud pedal (should you so wish), since most MB's don't have the oil temp visible to the driver its more guesswork than anything of course watch the coolant temp but it can't be used as a 100% replacement of the oil temp reading.
As for cooling the thing down if you have been driving hard enough to warrant the need for it then the engine is not the only thing that will need cooling and the car should be driven for a period of time in a cool-down session to allow everything to return to normal temps then just stop and shut off.
The only real time your going to get properly hot is tracking/racing the thing anyways and if your doing that then you should be well aware of the cool-down lap procedures and checks to be done on the vehicle both before and after a race session, i don't think a few 100mph blasts on the motorway will have any real effect on it so for 99% of the MB owners out there you simply stop and shut off.
I always say let them sit just long enough for the fast idle to drop normally only takes a few seconds anyways then engage a gear and off to go, drive the car conservatively until the thing has warmed up.
Ideally you would use the engine oil temp gauge and once the thing hits operating temp then work up the RPM's slowly once or twice then get heavy with the loud pedal (should you so wish), since most MB's don't have the oil temp visible to the driver its more guesswork than anything of course watch the coolant temp but it can't be used as a 100% replacement of the oil temp reading.
As for cooling the thing down if you have been driving hard enough to warrant the need for it then the engine is not the only thing that will need cooling and the car should be driven for a period of time in a cool-down session to allow everything to return to normal temps then just stop and shut off.
The only real time your going to get properly hot is tracking/racing the thing anyways and if your doing that then you should be well aware of the cool-down lap procedures and checks to be done on the vehicle both before and after a race session, i don't think a few 100mph blasts on the motorway will have any real effect on it so for 99% of the MB owners out there you simply stop and shut off.
Dieselman and Eurico,
Both of you guys definately know your stuff regarding the fundamentals and should I say the scientific behaviours of synthetic engine oil. Much more than I would ever dive into.
I tend to agree with both of you, on most of the subjects that both of you have covered. Excellent.
Top marks to both of you
From the original thread, I do not think that the car in question has a turbo. Does it ?
Both of you guys definately know your stuff regarding the fundamentals and should I say the scientific behaviours of synthetic engine oil. Much more than I would ever dive into.
I tend to agree with both of you, on most of the subjects that both of you have covered. Excellent.
Top marks to both of you
From the original thread, I do not think that the car in question has a turbo. Does it ?
Point taken but...
Modern engines are much better built than the old ones and tolerances are tighter and more constant - engine before is same as this one that's the same as the next one leaving the production line. For fuel economy they need finer oils with lower viscosity. In the good old days, that wasn't possible because oils that thin didn't hold their visosity with temeprature. So if they worked at 80 ºC, that meant they where like grease at 10 ºC. Also if they reached 100 ºC they where thin as water or worse - back to grease as the solvents all packed up and went north.
With modern technology this is possible. So even in warmer weather they need the thin part. Check the viscosities at 40 and 80 ºC of any synthetic and compare it with the equivalent mineral. It's much thinner when cold and thicker when hot. I believe the engines developed in parallel with the oils. One pushed the other in the development ladder. In my opinion, modern engines need the thinner oils despite the outside temperature. Today's cars have much more powerfull and precise cooling systems that can cope with higher outside temperature differences than before. Oils can be kept running at 80 ºC in winter or summer. In the good old days, sumps did the oil cooling, so it was really important to use an adequate oil regarding ambient temperature.
Shear is a problem, yes you are right. But I believe that you have to subject these new oils to quite a lot to break them. An oil that you suggest had to be part-synthetic or mineral. I really hate minerals because they gave me endless trouble with an Opel Kadett and a Renault 5. What a mess they where on the inside. The Opel's hydraulic cam followers where all stuck due to gunk blocking them. The poor old Renault bent a pushrod because the follower/valve stem whas glued by gum. I have run Mobil 1 5W50 in my present 1.9D Clio with excellent results. No oil being consumed and it's going strong with 240k km. The top end is incredibly clean and the cams still have the honing marks even in the lobe tip. I would have used any other synthetic but I can buy it at 6.25 euros/litre. I am a bit cheap in certain aspects. I even managed to modify the transmission disptick plug of my Merc not to have to buy the little tab...
Modern engines are much better built than the old ones and tolerances are tighter and more constant - engine before is same as this one that's the same as the next one leaving the production line. For fuel economy they need finer oils with lower viscosity. In the good old days, that wasn't possible because oils that thin didn't hold their visosity with temeprature. So if they worked at 80 ºC, that meant they where like grease at 10 ºC. Also if they reached 100 ºC they where thin as water or worse - back to grease as the solvents all packed up and went north.
With modern technology this is possible. So even in warmer weather they need the thin part. Check the viscosities at 40 and 80 ºC of any synthetic and compare it with the equivalent mineral. It's much thinner when cold and thicker when hot. I believe the engines developed in parallel with the oils. One pushed the other in the development ladder. In my opinion, modern engines need the thinner oils despite the outside temperature. Today's cars have much more powerfull and precise cooling systems that can cope with higher outside temperature differences than before. Oils can be kept running at 80 ºC in winter or summer. In the good old days, sumps did the oil cooling, so it was really important to use an adequate oil regarding ambient temperature.
Shear is a problem, yes you are right. But I believe that you have to subject these new oils to quite a lot to break them. An oil that you suggest had to be part-synthetic or mineral. I really hate minerals because they gave me endless trouble with an Opel Kadett and a Renault 5. What a mess they where on the inside. The Opel's hydraulic cam followers where all stuck due to gunk blocking them. The poor old Renault bent a pushrod because the follower/valve stem whas glued by gum. I have run Mobil 1 5W50 in my present 1.9D Clio with excellent results. No oil being consumed and it's going strong with 240k km. The top end is incredibly clean and the cams still have the honing marks even in the lobe tip. I would have used any other synthetic but I can buy it at 6.25 euros/litre. I am a bit cheap in certain aspects. I even managed to modify the transmission disptick plug of my Merc not to have to buy the little tab...
DanSLK: don't stop any turbocharged engine without letting the turbine/compressor wheel reduce speed to minimum. Oil starvation would result because the bearings are lubed by engine oil and it gets there by pump pressure. Also if there's a lot of heat in the housing, this will fry the little oil that stayed there. To be on the safe side, I try and reach my destination with little or no load in the engine so that the turbo is in a relaxed state of mind and ready to sleep.
C240yaz: Thanks for the feedback. I didn't forget you but the guy that I know at the MB dealer is on holiday and is back on thursday. Hope you can wait till then.
I think the original poster's car has a volumetric compressor that is run by a belt so when engine stops, its stops too. No need to do anything special, I think.
C240yaz: Thanks for the feedback. I didn't forget you but the guy that I know at the MB dealer is on holiday and is back on thursday. Hope you can wait till then.
I think the original poster's car has a volumetric compressor that is run by a belt so when engine stops, its stops too. No need to do anything special, I think.
I can wait. Thanks.
Hey pal,
Granted cool down is good i hope i made that clear in my post when i mentioned cooling down but for the need to have a procedure every time you stop the car is probably a little excessive for everyday use.
Normally when you stop a car the whole process from arriving at your destination and finding a spot to park up along with everything that goes with it is enough time for cooling and the engine speed is normally low during this period also.
Its not like revving an engine to 9k for an hour then killing the power or on track use certainly if you do a session at a track then just dump the car your going to cook components without a doubt not just the engine but the transmission and brakes also and a strict procedure should be followed every time to allow cooling for all components that get hot.
I just thought the topic of this thread is (was) general maintenance for a car that gets somebody from A to B on a public road and we will assume at road legal speeds, no car needs a fancy startup or shutdown under these conditions just a little care not to rag the car too soon and let her unwind before parking up things that most people do naturally really.
If fancy procedures where needed for your average Joe MB would make the owners aware of that fact if for no other reason than to keep warranty claims down and with all the TC/SC'd cars on the road now reliability is something that's paramount and the cooling issue will have been addressed.
Dieselman
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You must have a lot of extra fingers Danslk..
Thats what happens when you let your 6 month old kid play with the mouse, triple tap on the post reply button.You must have a lot of extra fingers Danslk..
W321
New Member
Well...
I know the discussion has been wrapped up, but out of curiousity,
eurico and Dieselman what do you think about this guy?
http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html
I know the discussion has been wrapped up, but out of curiousity,
eurico and Dieselman what do you think about this guy?
http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html
Dieselman
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I like the carbibles articles, they are no nonsense.
Here is a table of viscosity range. My point to Eurico is why go for an oil with a 0W rating. Unless he intends to go to the North pole..and I certainly wouldn't go for anything thinner than a 40 grade oil in warm climes.
Here is a table of viscosity range. My point to Eurico is why go for an oil with a 0W rating. Unless he intends to go to the North pole..and I certainly wouldn't go for anything thinner than a 40 grade oil in warm climes.
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One thing to add, every mechanic who served a recognised apprenticeship at a dealership or OEM and attended college over a 4 year period, gets taught this and sits examinations on this to obtain his qualifications, and may I add, several months study night and day, so nothing here is really new to a trained technician.
Good reading though and usefull as a refresh.
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Glenn Smith
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I like their bit in here about stone chips, it should read; do you know your Mercedes will go rusty regardless of touching up stone chips or not.
