Finding performance parts

[GazCaff]

I've been searching the web, out of idle interest really but also looking to the future (caught a bit of a bug from those Fins and their diesels).

I've been trying to find if there are is an uprated intercooler, turbo charger and injectors for my C250TD. I've drawn a blank so far and would be grateful if someone could point me in the right direction for any of these things. Thanks.

 

[Shude]

The C230k and C250TD share the same intercooler part number, while you may not find anyone doing upgraded intercoolers for the C250TD you will find some for the C230k (and SLK230 etc). They are expensive however!

What we need to do is find an aftermarket intercooler for a cheap Japanese car (like a honda or toyota with retrofitted turbo) that is about the same size and has similar fittings because the likes of Renntech want £3k for a bigger intercooler and no-one in the Japanese tuning market pays anything like that for parts.

 

[Doodle]

Someone like Allard should be able to make you a 'cooler for much less...I think I was quoted about £600 for one that basically filled the whole of the front grille.

 

[Bart]

Jap intercoolers over the last year or so have reduced in money....a large front mount intercooler with stainless steel kit, samco and brackets would now cost around £220....

Garrett GT28RS turbos now down to around £580, compared to a few years ago when they were double this...

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Uprating those parts will probably become an expensive business - you'd probably need another remap or external device to keep accomodate or make the most of it all too. No doubt fairly expensive per unit of improvement - but would certainly be possible.

To keep costs down you'll just need to scour the Internet for off-the-shelf options, or you could take the more expensive route of talking to a tuner who will have a headstart on what might be possible.

Maybe speak to someone like www.bbrgti.co.uk who can pretty much do anything you ask them too.

Pace will knock up a bespoke intercooler. They developed once for the Astra/Zafira turbos following a request from the owners club. If you want to buy just one it may be slightly more expensive than approaching on behalf of a group, but it's another option for you to consider.

 

[NW_Merc]

i'd be interested in a price for a turbo conversion for mine so i'd be interested in talking to them about it with you Gaz :bannana: :bannana:

 

[GazCaff]

Thanks for the replies, I'm really looking for the future because I want to make sure everything else is fine before I go beefing my car up any further. I think the first things I'd be interested in doing is the injectors, followed by the turbo. The intercooler is a fairly large unit anyway and quite well located so I think that would be the last thing on my list.

 

[bolide]

The only way to get a diesel to produce more power is to get it to burn more fuel. I think delivering enough fuel to give a decent power hike will always be a problem with the standard IP

Once you've got the fuel, make sure you can deliver enough air to burn it then map it to get it to run properly

If you check what those crazy Finns do you'll find it's all about pumps, fuel and boost. When you've got that I'd start worrying about charge temperature

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[Dieselman]

The standard IP should deliver more fuel than is required here but for a serious upgrade new high flow injectors will be required.

Deffinately start with adding more intercooler as you already have more fuel due to chipping, don't you, then add more boost, and more fuel to match.

At the very least fit an exhaust gas temperature guage, otherwise you could seriously cook the engine.

With every mod that improves breathing the gas temp will cool and every mod that increases fuelling the temp will rise.

The intake temp is only a problem as the higher it is the less efficient the engine will be, hence an intercooler the size of a house if you can.

Twin turbos will work better than one big one as they will spool quicker and reduce the 'orrible over-fuelling black smoke, which isn't at all necessary and actually reduces power at that point.

 

[GazCaff]

Can you suggest a good EGT guage? It'd pobably be a better idea if I get that first. The only thing is, with my exhaust being Stainless Steel, I'll have to fit it very carefully!

 

[Dieselman]

Personally I would opt for a standard analogue gauge as they are cheaper and don't require an external power supply.

One like THIS will do, but there are loads if you look.

I'd probably buy from HERE.

It might be worth reading the Banks tuning articles to get an idea of what you could do.

Fit the thermocouple into the exhaust manifold otherwise you will be reading the post turbo temperature not the true EGT. This could be considerably lower due to the turbo taking energy out of the gas.

If you really want to go all out with gauges fit an EGT, inlet manifold vacuum and temperature, fuel line vacuum and exhaust pressure gauge. This will tell you a lot about the state of your engine and any problems.

An EGT gauge can also be used as a good guide to fuel economy as the lower the temp the less fuel is being burned and the more efficient the engine.

 

[GazCaff]

Wow, thats some heavy reading! I'll have a look after a good nights sleep, thanks

 

[KLP 92]

I looked into this with my C250. The easiest and cheapest option to have more power is to fit the turbo from a W210 E300 TD. The turbo itself is of a similar size but has large fins inside, approx 30% over the 250. The turbo manifold is the same on the 300TD turbo, but the angle which it meets the downpipe is different. So you'll need a custom made downpipe, along with a new oil pipe to the turbo as the angle again is different.

Apart from them 2 issues its a straight fit.

 

[Doodle]

I must admit I'd always contemplated the thought of dropping an E300 motor into the W202...not sure if there's quite enough room though.

 

[GazCaff]

I looked into this with my C250. The easiest and cheapest option to have more power is to fit the turbo from a W210 E300 TD. The turbo itself is of a similar size but has large fins inside, approx 30% over the 250. The turbo manifold is the same on the 300TD turbo, but the angle which it meets the downpipe is different. So you'll need a custom made downpipe, along with a new oil pipe to the turbo as the angle again is different.

Apart from them 2 issues its a straight fit.

Is the E300 Turbo a Garrett like the 250 Turbo?

 

[bolide]

The standard IP should deliver more fuel than is required here but for a serious upgrade new high flow injectors will be required.

That surprises me. Why would a standard car that produces, say, 160 hp, have an IP suitable for 250 hp? Surely it would be easier to control if the IP delivered the "right" amount of fuel?

Deffinately start with adding more intercooler as you already have more fuel due to chipping, don't you, then add more boost, and more fuel to match.

At the very least fit an exhaust gas temperature guage, otherwise you could seriously cook the engine.

With every mod that improves breathing the gas temp will cool and every mod that increases fuelling the temp will rise.

As I understand it, reducing charge temperature (via an intercooler) is to increase the charge density, and hence increase the charge, and so allow more fuel to be burnt. I don't see how you can size an intercooler without deciding on the amount of boost, and there would be no point in boosting the engine above the amount of air the IP can deliver fuel to burn with

Which takes me back to my original statement about the IP and what the Finns do

The turbo itself is of a similar size but has large fins inside

See what I mean??

The intake temp is only a problem as the higher it is the less efficient the engine will be, hence an intercooler the size of a house if you can.

Twin turbos will work better than one big one as they will spool quicker and reduce the 'orrible over-fuelling black smoke, which isn't at all necessary and actually reduces power at that point.

How much control over fueling is there via the map on this car?

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[Dieselman]

That surprises me. Why would a standard car that produces, say, 160 hp, have an IP suitable for 250 hp? Surely it would be easier to control if the IP delivered the "right" amount of fuel?

All IP over deliver and the in line Bosch ones by a considerable margin. Two reasons for this, one is for pump flushing and cooling and the other is because there is no need to match the IP as closely, just let the excess return to the tank.

As I understand it, reducing charge temperature (via an intercooler) is to increase the charge density, and hence increase the charge, and so allow more fuel to be burnt. I don't see how you can size an intercooler without deciding on the amount of boost, and there would be no point in boosting the engine above the amount of air the IP can deliver fuel to burn with

Sort of true, but the greater the ability to cool the charge the more air can be rammed in by the turbo without increasing temperature, then bring the fueling upto stoichiometric and it should fly.

It is possible to extract greater performance running less boost if the air is cooler. If the turbo can deliver a max volume of air and the intercooler is size x which gives a charge temp of T, then if the intercooler is increased the turbo can still only deliver the same volume of air but the temperature and level of boost actually go down but the engine sees a greater density of air so can pack more into the cylinders. More fuel can be added so the resulting bang has more force.

Which takes me back to my original statement about the IP and what the Finns do
See what I mean??

How much control over fueling is there via the map on this car?

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

I thought the Finns just changed the injectors and recalibrated the pump. I didn't think gazCaf was after 500bhp anyway.

The fuel control on an C250TD and E300TD is completely electrical until maximum rack position is reached, which is quite a bit more than the standard setup. This is how a chip works, it amplifies the driver signal to have the solenoid pull the rack further.
After that the rack can be repositioned against the plungers to give greater throw before the spill off is reached.

Oh and the E300 turbo is larger than the 250.

 

[GazCaff]

All IP over deliver and the in line Bosch ones by a considerable margin. Two reasons for this, one is for pump flushing and cooling and the other is because there is no need to match the IP as closely, just let the excess return to the tank.

That and I guess MD just got a contracted Bosch to supply the nearest "off the shelf" in-line pump that'd do the job as well.

I thought the Finns just changed the injectors and recalibrated the pump. I didn't think gazCaf was after 500bhp anyway.

I'd only be looking for around 200bhp eventually! 500bhp would be nice, but also rather silly!

The fuel control on an C250TD and E300TD is completely electrical until maximum rack position is reached, which is quite a bit more than the standard setup. This is how a chip works, it amplifies the driver signal to have the solenoid pull the rack further.
After that the rack can be repositioned against the plungers to give greater throw before the spill off is reached.

Is this a simple mod, or a can of worms if tampered with?

Oh and the E300 turbo is larger than the 250.

I'm not sure if you were answering my last question there, but I just wanted to know if the E300 Turbocharger is also made by Garrett?

Thanks for all the replies to this thread, it is making interesting reading

 

[Dieselman]

I'm not sure if you were answering my last question there, but I just wanted to know if the E300 Turbocharger is also made by Garrett?

Yes it is.
Can't remember but 250 is a T20 and 300 is a T25 iirc. or something like that.

I would have thought a remap and boost adjustment would get you to 200bhp and if you do the cooler even more should be readily available before you need to change the injectors.

If you fancy getting silly do intercooler, turbo, injectors, exhaust manifold and exhaust, intake, remap.
I recon you'd be on your way to 250BHp with that lot.

The more air you can get to pass through the engine the more power it can produce once fuelling is brought up to match.

The reason why a remap has power limits is because there is no more air so the EGT goes sky high, more air and this reduces the temp again.

Not sure now, this lists the S-300 as a KKK unit.

See here

 

[GazCaff]

The model number for my Turbo is GT25. I've just had a bit of a search and found out that the 300 actually uses a KKK K14-2 Turbo, which would explain the mounting differences mentioned earlier.