Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 champions

[Dryce]

The Honda situation is little to do with lack of testing.

The problem with the regs is that once you have your power unit you can't develop it - you're stuck with what you've got.

Lack of in-season testing and the restrictions on changes screw you.

It's utterly stupid. And this stupidity is being re-emphasised by the situation with Haas being allowed to play with stuff out of Ferrari's toybox - whereas if they were actually in F1 they would be restricted.

 

[st13phil]

So what halo effect, do you think, if any, MB winning the F1 title has on your perceptions of the cars you buy?

I understand from a friend who works at Brackley that Toto gave a briefing to the workforce about the correlation between F1 race wins and global sales. Suffice to say that the benefit Mercedes derives from it's involvement in F1 is more than worthwhile and, significantly, much greater per unit spend than another German manufacturer enjoys from Endurance Racing or WRC involvement.

 

[grober]

Not forgeting that there are many other Team sponsors such as Petronas "basking in the glow" ------together with lots of race prize money poses the question just how much Mercedes has to contribute?

 

[whitenemesis]

Not forgeting that there are many other Team sponsors such as Petronas "basking in the glow" ------together with lots of race prize money poses the question just how much Mercedes has to contribute?

In the lead-up to the introduction of the current engine,

Mercedes Benz spent a record £242.1 million on its title challenge in 2011, according to its latest accounts.

Though the costs of the Mercedes team fell 0.2 per cent to £125.7 million, accounts show it spent £116.4 million on its engine division, a 54.2 per cent increase.
Spending was driven by investment in F1 energy-recovery devices, new V6 engines that will be introduced to the sport next year and an electric supercar.
Research and development costs on the engines alone jumped by £17.3 million to £52.4 million.

In general R&D for it's consumer vehicles, Mercedes-Benz Cars spent a total of €4.0 billion on research and development in 2014

One report has MB spending nearly 50% of that R&D budget on 'green' technologies

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2015/mercedes-benz/mercedes-benz-to-outsource-engineering-52799

 

[Bellow]

Reality check.

F1 has just about zero relevance to road cars.

Given how secretive F1 is with its tech, we can hardly know.
However, DCT, carbon brakes, and diffusers have been features of F1 long before they were adopted for road use. I think you would find (if you could) that many of the techniques used in cutting internal friction on road car engines first saw use in F1. Exactly the benefit for road cars that will accrue from hybrids in F1 is as yet unknown, but given that it is helping public acceptance of the increasing electrification of road cars (when diesels are in the dog house) may be of value in itself.

Where yesterday's race disappointed was in failing to provide a dog fight between LH and NR - as it has for most of the season. Yesterday due to an unfortunate failure on NR's car, more generally because LH has upped his game this year (for which he can hardly be criticised) and NR is just not up to the task. Perhaps if Vettel or Alonso were LH's team mate it would be different. Perhaps it should be incumbent on the team that win the constructor's championship to field world champions in both cars for the following season?...

 

[Dryce]

I understand from a friend who works at Brackley that Toto gave a briefing to the workforce about the correlation between F1 race wins and global sales. Suffice to say that the benefit Mercedes derives from it's involvement in F1 is more than worthwhile and, significantly, much greater per unit spend than another German manufacturer enjoys from Endurance Racing or WRC involvement.

Well they would say that wouldn't they! I suspect that the F1 team principals of works teams have it down on their CV that they are good at selling F1 to their parent.

I think F1 is an ecosystem that puffs itself up as being way more important than it actually is. Not just those administering the sport but those in the teams.

Also bear in mind that that the Mercedes F1 team has had a number of expensive barren years before their current top form years - that money needs to be added to the accounts.

My view is that Ferrari are really the only major beneficiaries of the F1 ecosystem as it's core to their brand - yet allegedly the F1 ecosystem *pays them* extra when arguably they have most to lose if they weren't there.

 

[Deleted member 113659]

Having spent a lifetime hooked on F1 watching live and on TV. I now have stopped unless I have nothing better to do (very rare). When the sound went, the passion went with it. Motorsport is about the noise and the excitement. Can you imagine watching a Spitfire if it sounded like a wet fart? You know the result before the race so no anticipation. You also know that Maldonado will crash, Lewis will be uber depressed if he comes anywhere apart from 1st. No Murray Walker passion is another downer for me.

Standing at Dingle Dell, thinking my ears would bleed, watching cars fly and the gorgeous smell of burnt oil & fuel. Heaven. All gone now. You get a vague whiff of hairdryer fumes accompanied by the sound of wet fart.

I agree with all of the above Bruce. I made a point of taking our daughter to Silverstone 2013 because I knew the engine noise the following year/s would be reduced. She was blown away by the the 3 day weekend as a whole and was delighted to see Lewis get pole. Although heartbroken when he retired on the Sunday.

I do hope F1 sorts itself out one day so we can all start enjoying more of what we miss.

I'm really enjoying reading everyone's views on F1. There's some very interesting points being made.

Ant.

 

[st13phil]

Well they would say that wouldn't they!

Ha ha! An obvious retort

I agree that F1 has become overblown and long ago decided it was entertainment rather than sport, but my suspicion is that when a manufacturer such as Mercedes decides to participate in motorsport, they also look for where they are likely to receive the best return on their investment. On that basis, I'm inclined to give Toto's briefing at least some credence.

 

[tron]

...but I agree there's no guaranty it will actually catch on for F1 cars. BMW won a few races with a Diesel powered 5-series some years back, and yet to date Diesel failed to make its mark on car racing as a whole.

You haven't been to Le Mans in the last few years, then?

 

[tron]

Perhaps it should be incumbent on the team that win the constructor's championship to field world champions in both cars for the following season?...

And if the same guy wins five times in a row, who are you going to put in the second car who isn't five years from his last championship?

Lewis Hamilton is the best English driver I have seen since Moss. I truly do not think that Vettel is his equal as a Racer nor that Alonso is his equal as a Driver.
The rest simply do not count.

Bernard Charles cosying up to dictators - Why am I thinking of an Essex girl sitcom?

He does, however hold the key to changing the rules. An avowed Ferrari fan,he knows if the show is flat and will move to change things if he is fit to do so.
My concern is that on Sunday's coverage, he looked as though he has suffered a stroke and he was definitely not his at his usual sharpness.

Give me his job for a week and 2017 would see cars with 2.5 litre stock block motors, three pedals and a lever to change the gears with. Tyres would be run what you like and there would be fuel enough to use full throttle at any time you would wish. The T-car would be available for the race, and, if not needed would be driven by the test driver for prize money and prestige but no points.

 

[flango]

I think they should do what they do in F1 stockcars the fastest in practice starts at the back of the grid not the front that would liven things up a little. A similar principle is also used in BTCC. Both currently provide better racing than F1 and an F1 stock car has more Bhp and is quicker than an F1 car

F1 needs a change or it will wither and die

 

[AMGeed]

I think they should do what they do in F1 stockcars the fastest in practice starts at the back of the grid

What incentive would there be in practicing fast if it sends you to the back of the grid?

F1 needs a change or it will wither and die

That I do agree with. Bernie is tinkering with the rules trying but failing to liven up F1 as a viewing sport.
If the likes of a few guys here can come up with suggestions like plenty of fuel, tyres that last, exclude the electronic gizmos, get back to a big engine V8/10/12 etc, what are the people that have a say actually putting forward?

Totally ridiculous situation whereby a driver has to go slower to conserve fuel or tyres!

 

[nb_racing]

So what halo effect, do you think, if any, MB winning the F1 title has on your perceptions of the cars you buy? For me it does have a slight positive effect on my AMG experience - it makes the brand seem more credible regarding its sporting credentials and I'm a big F1 and Lewis fan so happy days for me.

I'm sorry to take the wind out of your sails, but mercedes have beaten ferrari and the other well known car makers Williams and Red Bull.

Do Ferrari and Mercedes have the same target market? Essentially, no. Yes, the GT is a rival generally speaking but what percentage of overall sales does the GT account for?

Congratulations to Mercedes? Perhaps, but they've not had a struggle to win it, let's be honest. (I'm not knocking the hard work 1200 people put in on a daily basis..)

There is one simple problem with Formula 1; restrictive rules. In a nut shell:

The rules allow no development for road car projects, hence there are only 2 genuine works teams. WEC and rallying allow for real endurance testing. Hybrid technology, fuel economy and durability WITH performance are relevant factors in road cars and are at the heart of endurance racing. This is why there are 4 works teams in LMP1H. And they all run vastly different power trains.

Restrictive engine regs do not reduce costs. F1 (and motorsport in general) is a game of marginal gains. The extra tenths of seconds cost exponentially more and more. Budgets are still sky high, way above any reputable lower formula team can ever hope to raise. (Look at the struggle Manor has and has been through).

My solution?
In my opinion there needs to be in place:
Cost cap. Very simply, there is an X million pound/euro/dollar fixed cap on total spend. The FiA send into every team 2 or 3 financial auditors to monitor all budgets.
Related to the cost cap is a head count cap. X number of employed and contract staff. Again, FiA delegates monitor this.

Free up the rule book. Allow scope for development, allow different engine configs, and while I don't object to hybrid systems, ban them. They cost too much money.

Balance of performance. The ACO have a very complex but effective system to equalise the performance of the cars. Why not use a similar system? So right now, mercedes would have a charge pressure limit slow them down, just enough to bring the others in line.

Bring back testing. Offset 5 races with 3 day tests. 16 race calendar, 5 in season tests running 2 cars.

Which brings me on to... rookie drivers. Only rookie drivers to drive at in season testing, pre season and winter testing open to all.

And... 3 car teams or customer cars. Either or. F1 is a SPORT so the more cars the better.
3 car teams; Economies of scale say that producing a 3rd race car costs next to nothing once the infrastructure is there. In fact teams carry spares to each race to build 2 spare cars... (to be fair just one chassis in most cases). The designated 3rd car must run a rookie driver (another point coming later)

Customer cars; Why not sell cars to customer teams? As I said, it is a sport, more cars can only be a good thing. There are drivers out there with the financial backing for it, so lets give them customer teams. Get some rookies in there. The super licence system has been sorted now (ish..) so lets get more rookie drivers showing the so called professional drivers what they can do.

Rookie drivers; there needs to be way more opportunity for rookie drivers and young drivers to be able to prove themselves. So many outstanding drivers fall by the wayside because they don't have $30m of state funding behind them...(Which is needed to find those marginal gains...) Introduce a rookie championship. Same cars, same races, only eligible in your first season racing, only eligible in a 3rd car or customer car.

No team wants rookies without cash because they bring no benefit to the team.... Such a shame.

All these matters boil down to restrictive regulations.

 

[tron]

And reduce the complexity of the rules so that you don't need to be a brain surgeon to work out what is going on. Bloke out front when the flag is out wins, bloke behind second etc. Cars are scrutineered before the race. It ought to be enough. If it is legal on the grid then it is legal at the flag. And ban the ship to shore. Just give Charlie the mic to the drivers for safety reasons and just put the pit board info on the dashboard. Less is more.

 

[Bellow]

And if the same guy wins five times in a row, who are you going to put in the second car who isn't five years from his last championship?

The point is it would reduce substantially the chance of one driver winning it five times in a row. Only Schumacher got close to that and no one regards his then team mates of being top flight drivers.

Lewis Hamilton is the best English driver I have seen since Moss. I truly do not think that Vettel is his equal as a Racer nor that Alonso is his equal as a Driver.
The rest simply do not count.

Were Vettel and Alonso in more competitive machinery we would know better. LH is good, no denying it, but the superiority of the car flatters him greatly. Even with a car that good, his team mate is currently behind Vettel in the championship. Vettel in the second Mercedes?...

Give me his job for a week and 2017 would see cars with 2.5 litre stock block motors, three pedals and a lever to change the gears with. .

Hold on a second until I reset my wristwatch back 30 years.
F1 is the technological pinnacle of motorsport (until I see a stock car lap Spa faster...) and you propose technology that the spectators parking their own road cars gave up on decades ago. Perhaps stock cars would suit you better.

 

[st13phil]

There is one simple problem with Formula 1; restrictive rules.

Some interesting points from someone who (presumably) knows more about the issues than most on this board.

As an outsider it appears to me that F1 has become progressively more hide-bound by restrictive rules that are put in place to allegedly control costs - which they have patently failed to do.

There's nothing new about the labyrinthine rules that govern F1 though: Colin Chapman was a recognised master at interpreting them to his team's benefit and he's been dead for more than 30 years. And (as has been famously said in other fields) you can't uninvent that which has been invented, so unless rules that outlaw the use of specific expensive technologies or components are introduced, then they will continue to appear on cars.

Cost and personnel caps are notoriously difficult to effectively police, but they may be the last option available to move F1 into a cheaper, less rarefied world. I suspect that those with the deepest pockets won't be championing them though.

 

[tron]

No, Bellow.
Your first point has no logical basis whatsoever and can thus be dismissed out of hand.
Your second is equally risible. Vettel is for the first time ahead because the vastly superior car that Rosberg drives retired.
Your third merited some research. As I do not have the wherewithal to drive a new car, I looked in the company car park at our managers' cars to find only one that had two pedal control. The tyres were from a number of different manufacturers and many of them used a production block. The pool car was also fitted with three pedals and none is yet a year old. Some years ago, the works manager had a hybrid but it was so inferior in all practical terms, including economy, to a fifteen year old Citroen BX that he soon got rid of it. Ours, by the way is a leading high tech company in the aerospace sector.

 

[tec]

LH is good, no denying it, but the superiority of the car flatters him greatly. Even with a car that good, his team mate is currently behind Vettel in the championship. Vettel in the second Mercedes?...

Rosberg is not a slow driver, as he was constantly faster than 7x world champion Michael Schumacher when they were team mates at Mercedes.

Hamilton is just driving faster than anyone else right now.

I am happy with F1 as it is, but there is always room for improvements as with anything else.

 

[Dryce]

Hamilton is just driving faster than anyone else right now.

Hamilton seems to have really come good in his last year at McLaren.

I think his (relatively) poor second last year with the team changed him and he came out the next year as a better driver.

The telling point, I think, is that he isn't just fast but also relatively light on fuel and tyres. (Ironic perhaps that Senna was reputedly very heavy on fuel - I don't think for a moment that Hamilton would claim he was better than Senna but put the two in the same car under today's rules and Senna might get a shock).

I am happy with F1 as it is, but there is always room for improvements as with anything else.

The short sighted fan view in some parts of the F1 fan fraternity is that any situation that puts their guy on top is ideal.

A more balanced view may disagree with you.

I think right now F1 is more broken than it has ever been.

It's very very lucky that there is no dispute about Hamilton's abilities behind the wheel or it would be even more broken were there questionmarks about the WC being a mediocre driver in an unbeatable car.

 

[AMGeed]

Rosberg is not a slow driver, as he was constantly faster than 7x world champion Michael Schumacher when they were team mates at Mercedes.

Hamilton is just driving faster than anyone else right now.

The difference between them is Rosberg is driving at 10/10ths and is still slower than Lewis at 9/10ths.

Rosberg will never win a title at Mercedes whilst Hamilton is in the team.