Mercedes tyre 'skipping' - official statement

[brucemillar]

You'd part with 45k + and happily sign a waiver?

I fail to see how anybody ( I include the complete non-motoring novice ) could be convinced to sign this waiver.

1) Mercedes have said that they are still investigating the issue/characteristic/problem.

That says that that Mercedes do not, cannot or will not state what the root cause is. Without root cause, they cannot state what the eventual outcome will look like? Without knowing that, how can any buyer agree to any waiver (or purchase).

Whatever the root cause? the effect, as shown in the videos and described by many drivers, cannot be doing the drive train components any favours. It is unlikely to extend the meantime before failure. This being so, and having signed the waiver, you are potentially staring at rather large maintenance bills, that would exceed that of a car that does not exhibit this behaviour.

 

[dejongj]

Mercedes tyre 'skipping' - official statement | PistonHeads


Mercedes-Benz UK statement issued 24/1/17 and reproduced verbatim:
We're sorry to hear that a small number of customers have experienced an issue with certain models, generally at cold ambient temperatures while manoeuvring at low speed with steering lock applied. The experience is of the front tyres apparently 'skipping'. This is a comfort issue, and does not affect the safety or performance of the vehicle.

This characteristic comes from flexibility within the tyre sidewall, the grip between the front tyres and the type of road surface being driven over. It is something which can be felt only at very low speeds, and when a certain percentage of wheel lock is engaged for turning. This is demonstratively more evident in colder temperatures due to the changes in the tyre rubber elasticity.

Winter tyres and all-season tyres on 18- or 19-inch wheels improve this characteristic and we would always recommend their use in temperatures which fall below approximately +7 degrees Celsius. The use of 18-inch wheels with summer tyres also improves the issue.

We do, however, appreciate that is not always possible or practical for customers to fit alternative tyres or wheels, and our technical experts in the UK are investigating alternative ways to help minimise this characteristic.

Well here we have the silly situation that some of us owners find ourselves in, and I do feel sorry for the dealers in-between.

So we are trying to come to an arrangement, I explained that I've never been put in the position to even be able to try winter tyres to see whether that rectifies it. And guess what they cannot supply them for my standard Mercedes wheels. Parts say the item cannot be ordered, their third party tyre supplier who uses a bay cannot get them either. MB UK can't supply them.

What on earth is an owner supposed to do?

I've been told verbally that the next factory run is expected in June to make these tyres that will supposedly sort the issue.

Sigh, both my dealer and I had a laugh about it. I can't muster up being angry about this any longer. It is like some bad comedy.

What is one supposed to do?

 

[Tim203]

What is one supposed to do?

Answer: buy a Landrover product! Seriously, Landrover don't compete nose to nose with others.They make a vehicle with geometry and turning limitations to their formula, a known one that is as reliable as they can make it. Now take the others for example. Someone from marketing goes into engineering at Benz and says BMW's 'X3' has a turning circle of 11.8 metres and ours only 12.4, that means we lose a point in the magazine tests and come second. Make it 11.7 m. So not being able to shorten the wheel base the lock stops get changed at which point the Ackerman angle goes wrong, the cv joints don't work properly and the LSD is causing chaos. Forget all the excuses and winter tyres. Every suspension set up has limitations. If it doesn't scrub 1/3 or 1/2 a turn off full lock just do that. Most vehicles have full lock limitations. In a street where people turn round at the end you'll always see shoulder scrubbed tyres on one side.

 

[John Jones Jr]

I wouldn't part with £45K for a GLC. That sort of price for a car in this category is a much bigger problem *to me* before even thinking about pros and cons.

However if say was looking to acquire one at an acceptable price for the vehicle - eg. a discount new, or lease offer, or buying a used one then this low speed tight lock tyre scrubbing issue would be a minor con vs the positive attributes of the vehicle.

I thought when you said you would quite possibly buy one it was in the context of the people that had purchased or were about to...never mind.

 

[John Jones Jr]

I fail to see how anybody ( I include the complete non-motoring novice ) could be convinced to sign this waiver.

The mind boggles.

If BMW did this there would be a laugh a minute on here!

 

[dejongj]

Answer: buy a Landrover product! Seriously, Landrover don't compete nose to nose with others.They make a vehicle with geometry and turning limitations to their formula, a known one that is as reliable as they can make it. Now take the others for example. Someone from marketing goes into engineering at Benz and says BMW's 'X3' has a turning circle of 11.8 metres and ours only 12.4, that means we lose a point in the magazine tests and come second. Make it 11.7 m. So not being able to shorten the wheel base the lock stops get changed at which point the Ackerman angle goes wrong, the cv joints don't work properly and the LSD is causing chaos. Forget all the excuses and winter tyres. Every suspension set up has limitations. If it doesn't scrub 1/3 or 1/2 a turn off full lock just do that. Most vehicles have full lock limitations. In a street where people turn round at the end you'll always see shoulder scrubbed tyres on one side.

I'm probably missing something but Mercedes produces very capable vehicles. My GLS doesn't do this. The GLS doesn't do this. nor does the G wagon. Heck the latter is good enough for many armies around the world; I know I had one

And also the LHD versions don't do this either, and as it is transporting many RHD versions don't do it either.

It's fair enough to have your opinion. My post wasn't a theoretical one, it is a serious question what to do when Mercedes says the answer is x but they don't actually sell x. I'm not even talking about getting it for free.

 

[henryc1]

As my car is fast approaching 6 months I thought I should formalise my complaint and sent off a long email to the Dealership. You won't be surprised that I got the usual pro forma bullshine response almost by return. I attach part of the response which you might find interesting - I was not aware that the Motor Industry Ombudsman had inspected the car, I thought they had supported one complainant in their attempted rejection!

"I have personally contacted Mercedes today to review your individual case and I have been advised that regretfully as this is not being recognised as a fault of the vehicle it does not qualify for any contribution or indeed any rejection requests.
I was re assured that this car has been inspected by DEKRA following initial issues that presented themselves and Mercedes have been working with the motor industry Ombudsman who following their own inspections have deduced this is not a fault with the car but a characteristic.
Mercedes are looking at what may be a solution which will be communicated when it is agreed to affected customers."

 

[henryc1]

Addendum to my message

By the way I am not dissing the dealership in any way, at least on this particular topic. As someone has already commented, they are between a rock and a hard place. My complaint is with MBUK as they didn't even attempt to respond to any of the points I made eg RHD only "characteristic", its OK to have a major comfort issue with an expensive premium car and the crabbing/jumping happens at all temperatures

 

[HumberMart]

By the way I am not dissing the dealership in any way, at least on this particular topic. As someone has already commented, they are between a rock and a hard place. My complaint is with MBUK as they didn't even attempt to respond to any of the points I made eg RHD only "characteristic", its OK to have a major comfort issue with an expensive premium car and the crabbing/jumping happens at all temperatures

I'm now wondering if a Misselling claim may be the most powerful attack.

MB advise winter tyres but can't supply them and don't supply them on new deliveries.

So they've sold something that's unfit for purpose, regardless of blame/fault.

 

[FSE23]

I wouldn't go that way as most of the roads in UK are unfit for purpose but it doesn't do them unusable.
I wonder btw why this matter appears now in the winter while a lot of GLC cars have been driving for quite a long time in the country. And I can't see queuing people to Mercedes garages asking for repairs. Just my thoughts.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Answer: buy a Landrover product! Seriously, Landrover don't compete nose to nose with others.

Horses for courses as we say in the racing world...

There does also seem to be similar complaints with the A-Class, yet it's unheard of from the GLE (old ML) upwards, so could it become simply that Mercedes are struggling to get everything stuffed into a package with the smaller platforms?

 

[Dryce]

I thought when you said you would quite possibly buy one it was in the context of the people that had purchased or were about to...never mind.

That's not quite the question taht was asked.

Really the point is if I really liked a car (GLC or otherwise) and was prepared to spend £45K on it would this issue kill the deal - answer - not necessarily.

I can't be the only person who would compromise - if that's what they wanted.

 

[markjay]

I wouldn't part with £45K for a GLC. That sort of price for a car in this category is a much bigger problem *to me* before even thinking about pros and cons...

I think that not many people just walk into an MB showroom and buy a car (any car) at the RRP these days.

Between the standard dealer contribution, additional finance discount, special deals for company car owners, and buying a car from stock as opposed to factory order - most people pay considerably less than RRP (with the possible exception of some rare/sought-after sport models).

But the issue is not the price.... its whether that's acceptable on a new vehicle.

To be honest, I don't know... yes I would be p1ssed if it was my new car, but in the cold light of day I can also see the logic behind classifying it as 'characteristic' .

 

[Tim203]

But the issue is not the price.... its whether that's acceptable on a new vehicle. To be honest, I don't know... yes I would be p1ssed if it was my new car, but in the cold light of day I can also see the logic behind classifying it as 'characteristic' .

Strange things Mercedes'. My old 203 is flawed in so many ways it's unbelievable. I still sort of like it. Marmite cars! If the wheels scuffing on full lock is the only bad thing then they can't be too bad!

 

[190]

I know what you mean by flaws and some are acceptable. The view of the instruments through the steering wheel in a W201 is appalling but I lived with it. Noises I think are different. If the suspension makes a noise you are not going to be happy because even though it might not affect the ride, subjectively you are going to feel that it does. If a car made the noise I've heard on the videos then it would not be acceptable to me. When I came to sell I can't imagine myself saying "that's just character" to a prospective purchaser.

I have to admit I'm rarely conscious of using full lock but out of curiosity I tried it right to the stops in a supermarket car park. Result was smooth and quiet and that's how it should be. If others cars skip and jump on full lock, be they few or many, they are flawed because it's possible to make cars that don't.

 

[John Jones Jr]

That's not quite the question taht was asked.

Really the point is if I really liked a car (GLC or otherwise) and was prepared to spend £45K on it would this issue kill the deal - answer - not necessarily.

I can't be the only person who would compromise - if that's what they wanted.

So, it's conceivable you would sign the waiver...

 

[John Jones Jr]

But the issue is not the price.... its whether that's acceptable on a new vehicle.

Indeed, it's not just the price.

 

[markjay]

So, it's conceivable you would sign the waiver...

I don't know.

I think that of it was The right car (model, spec) and the deal was good (pricewise) then yes I would live with it. I would not be happy about it, but I would probably agree.

But I really don't know.

And I am not criticising those who won't accept it (though I disagree with the claimed 'safety' implications).

 

[dejongj]

But the issue is not the price.... its whether that's acceptable on a new vehicle.

To be honest, I don't know... yes I would be p1ssed if it was my new car, but in the cold light of day I can also see the logic behind classifying it as 'characteristic' .

I would not accept it on a £1,500 second hand car unless I was aware of an easy fix for it. It is so horrible to have, it truly is when you experience it to the extend these vehicles do, that I wouldn't accept it on any vehicle.

And yes I have bought second hand cars with knocking noises, but it was clear what it was and I often (I used to like my old big engined large cars) I just factored in to change all the arms/bushes etc especially on the front. But this is so different, very different indeed.

I know what you mean by flaws and some are acceptable. The view of the instruments through the steering wheel in a W201 is appalling but I lived with it. Noises I think are different. If the suspension makes a noise you are not going to be happy because even though it might not affect the ride, subjectively you are going to feel that it does. If a car made the noise I've heard on the videos then it would not be acceptable to me. When I came to sell I can't imagine myself saying "that's just character" to a prospective purchaser.

I have to admit I'm rarely conscious of using full lock but out of curiosity I tried it right to the stops in a supermarket car park. Result was smooth and quiet and that's how it should be. If others cars skip and jump on full lock, be they few or many, they are flawed because it's possible to make cars that don't.

100% Agree - My loaner GLE 350d I have now on exactly the same journey, the same driveway (yup some people even blamed my drive way ), is totally smooth with no noises. Exactly the same experience I had with my GLS as well. Mercedes do and can make cars that don't do this.

EDIT: So even if it was a characteristic, I think it is unreasonable to expect that to be part of the vehicle. So from that perspective Mercedes are doing the right thing now to inform prospective customers that their car may have this characteristic. Which is great as it provides those who don't mind it as choice whether to get the vehicle or not. Unfortunately before we made this noise, the characteristic of this car was not known prior to purchase. Not even the dealer sales teams were aware, and I seriously doubt that Mercedes UK was aware.

 

[st13phil]

If others cars skip and jump on full lock, be they few or many, they are flawed because it's possible to make cars that don't.

We keep going around this loop, don't we? But the logic is flawed.

Of course it's possible to set up a car's steering geometry so that the wheels don't judder and skip on full lock. There are many, many, model examples that don't.

However, steering and suspension geometry is a series of compromises. The question that none of us has the answer to (and believe me, there will be an answer), is "what desirable steering / suspension characteristic is compromised if total elimination of wheel judder and skip on full lock is prioritised?".

I'm not a suspension geometry guru, but the fact that there are many different model examples, across the product range of many manufacturers, that do exhibit wheel judder and skip on full lock tells me that those with more knowledge of the topic than me make a conscious design decision to accept a degree of that characteristic for a reason. In other words, there is a benefit to compromises selected.

For reasons unknown to us, MB seem to have got it wrong on certain examples of the GLC in that the characteristic is intrusive in general use, rather than being just a minor effect that occurs under a limited number of extreme operating conditions. That is the problem that needs addressing, not the total elimination of the effect under all conditions.