MKB-Tuning

[andy27168]

Hi,
When they mailled you the 202 price list did they include the C43? Though I should imagine it be very similar to Howards CLK430.

 

[Spoonman]

Yes it had a C43 on the list, I stopped looking when I saw 20k and 40k price tags on those kits though lol

 

[Doodle]

You also have to remember that the build quality of most jap cars when compared to MB's are absolutely rubbish. Not saying they aren't reliable or dissing them, as i actually like top-end jap cars, but truth be said, the parts on their cars are just crap.

My friends have 200SX's and preludes and everytime i see them working on them the amount of rust they have in the body work with deteriorated panels and shoddy parts is just horrendous.

Yes their cars are faster than mine, and yes the can probably handle better, but i like my standard-ish comfy, reliable and robust (and rustless) cost me only £2-2.5k to date whereas theirs have cost them close to £10k

You'll find most Jap cars are fine if you either leave them alone, or do it right (Mark's CRXs are prime examples of a job done properly).
A combination of cheap tat and half-done bodges, which so many suffer from at that price bracket, gets the result you've noted - perhaps these are the only examples you've experienced.

I put 145k on my first Civic VTi in a little over 5 years. Nothing broke, nothing squeaked, nothing rattled, nothing stopped working (bar a failed taillight bulb), just routine maintenance. Crap build quality?

 

[Shude]

Well its the 202 price list I asked for and the prices are not quite as much, but still a way too much imo. just a taster.

Thanks! As previously stated the prices are laughable. If it was closer to about a grand for pulley, ECU and a few other bits and pieces then it'd be fine. I think Kleemann charge something like 1.5k for that kind of work.

 

[Spoonman]

Its funny you should mention rust coz thats the biggest issue on my W202 atm lol

 

[Adam230K]

You'll find most Jap cars are fine if you either leave them alone

Actually the stuff they replaced on their cars (their cars were at around 40-50k miles) were even worse then the branded parts they were putting in.

Im not questioning their reliability, but when you ask most mechanics of the build quality difference between civics and mercs you know what the answer is going to be...

And there are plenty of multi-thousand mile mercs out there above your 145kmile civic with 0 problems too, all depends on your luck of the batch of car you bought and how well maintained it is.

 

[Spoonman]

It is more maintinance I think. Any car will suffer old age if it isnt well kept, I think MB drivers tend to worry more about proper servicing and keeping their car in good condition than your average civic owner.

When it comes to modified parts its also worth considering that often aftermarket parts are not bought to increase performance, but to increase reliability that may otherwise be lost when a car is tuned to high power (Forged pistons, rocket stoppers, uprated clutches, that sort of thing). And when it comes to body styling the same can apply, if someone spends a couple of thousand on getting carbon wings for their car its pretty much guaranteed theyre less likely to suffer rust than the original items

 

[Doodle]

Actually the stuff they replaced on their cars (their cars were at around 40-50k miles) were even worse then the branded parts they were putting in.

Im not questioning their reliability, but when you ask most mechanics of the build quality difference between civics and mercs you know what the answer is going to be...

And there are plenty of multi-thousand mile mercs out there above your 145kmile civic with 0 problems too, all depends on your luck of the batch of car you bought and how well maintained it is.

What parts were they replacing, and why?

Surely reliability and build quality go hand in hand? If a car is poorly screwed together, it won't last and will have problems. What is your measure of "build quality? A Merc is meant to be a luxury, the Honda isn't.

When I picked up the SL from PCS, I asked Olly to give his opinion of the Civic from a "working" standpoint. It wasn't the answer you're expecting.

Yes, there are, and maintenance plays a big part of it. Look after your car, and it will look after you. Do things badly, and it'll come back to bite you. I would also postulate that your C230K is treated and maintained much better than those 200SX's you mention - with the resulting observations you made.

A generalisation perhaps, but in my experience true. My Honda gets a far harder time than the Merc does, because it's that sort of car.

 

[Adam230K]

What parts were they replacing, and why?

Surely reliability and build quality go hand in hand? If a car is poorly screwed together, it won't last and will have problems. What is your measure of "build quality? A Merc is meant to be a luxury, the Honda isn't.

When I picked up the SL from PCS, I asked Olly to give his opinion of the Civic from a "working" standpoint. It wasn't the answer you're expecting.

Yes, there are, and maintenance plays a big part of it. Look after your car, and it will look after you. Do things badly, and it'll come back to bite you. I would also postulate that your C230K is treated and maintained much better than those 200SX's you mention - with the resulting observations you made.

A generalisation perhaps, but in my experience true. My Honda gets a far harder time than the Merc does, because it's that sort of car.

Ok i'll play along,

Basically they replaced the brake system (complete) and suspension (complete) along with some minor mods to the engine to bring it to about 280bhp. The brakes (which were 4 pot) didnt even have the stopping power of my c-class (which has some standard looking 1 pots!) and my car is alot heavier than theirs dont forget (this was tested side by side, i can stop alot better then they can).

Also when their brake discs and shocks came off, the discs were scored and pretty much finished (i changed my discs at 91k and they had plenty of life left in them) and their shocks were leaking, remember this is all at 43k miles! and i've had originals in mine and its got over double the mileage!

And to add about civics, my best mate has the older shaped civic with a forged engine (goes like sh1t off a shovel would probably embarass AMG's of today) and its IMMACULATE in and out but it cost him ALOT OF MONEY (slightly over the 10k mark) to put right. Prior to that it was at 70k miles and when he was replacing the suspension he had to get parts of the chassis re-welded because the rust managed to creep up into where the suspension sits. And it was rattly inside, another thing he had to put right with appropriate padding. Conclusion: crap build quality!

I love jap cars for what they are, especially skylines/soarers but some of the lower tier jap cars are just really badly equipped (standard equipment is shoddy) and you can see it when you remove these parts to replace them.

And you would be surprised at the amount of W124 mercs there are out there running on their last legs getting a very hard time from owners who are running them to the ground, with alot more mileage!

Dont live in an illusion, mercs/bmws/audi's/vw (anything that comes out of germany bar opel) will always have better build quality then japenese cars, otherwise jap cars would be in the same price range!

 

[Doodle]

Dont live in an illusion, mercs/bmws/audi's/vw (anything that comes out of germany bar opel) will always have better build quality then japenese cars, otherwise jap cars would be in the same price range!

Enough said

 

[detomaso]

I like a friendly debate

Do you happen to know the make of the parts they put on? Because if it was D2 stuff then they were asking for trouble (IMHO). The coilovers are known to leak after a short amount of use and their brakes are just re-branded products, both parts are cheap to buy in comparison to proper JDM set ups.

What I'm basically saying is yes I agree, MB are expensive to buy originally and that is due to their inherant quality, but they are also more expensive to get equivalent performance parts for...

 

[Adam230K]

Tein Coilovers, apex exhausts, some driftworks bushes (subframe and steering column), engine mods are all HKS. One of them has "Willwood" brake callipers, the other 2 have stuck to the common brembo 4 pots.

Those are some of the top names afaik right?

 

[detomaso]

Ha ha, yes yes & yes, bu99er! Massive fail!

Well I am surprised, especially at the Teins, very good rep and a desirable brand. I think it is general concencus that Wilwood make some stonking brakes, something doesn't seem quite right, but I'm willing to admit defeat even though I had no issues with mine

 

[Adam230K]

Ha ha, yes yes & yes, bu99er! Massive fail!

Well I am surprised, especially at the Teins, very good rep and a desirable brand. I think it is general concencus that Wilwood make some stonking brakes, something doesn't seem quite right, but I'm willing to admit defeat even though I had no issues with mine

Oh no i think you understood me wrongly.

What i was trying to say was the original equipment that they had on their cars before replacing it with the names i've mentioned above were awful. The stuff that they've put on seem ok, although one of the
damper's on his tein coilovers has fallen off lol!

The civic was alot worse off than the 200sx's in terms of original equipment though, and it was the 1.8 v-tec!

But obviously now their cars go alot faster and stop better than my car but i haven't had to spend all that money if you know what i mean, i just bought my original car and apart from the discs/exhaust(AMG)/alloys i haven't had to change anything else! (oh yeah and the ECU)

 

[DITTRICH]

yeah but that's a price presumably in euros mate. Converted that'd be only £1239

that said i'd be casually interested in a price list for m111 c230k w202

+1 :d

 

[Spoonman]

Brakes are one of those things where uprated doesnt mean better it seems, some need to heat up more than standard brakes before they'll work well, others will fade away quicker.

As someone said before I am suprised about the tein suspension, they do have a good reputation for quality and arent exactly the cheapest of aftermarket brands.

I read a test of aftermarket discs and they had very little advantage over standard items (it was on an audi TT), but appart from pads they are the cheapest way to upgrade brakes, as for full systems I know a lot of people have a lot of confidence in AP racing and Tarox brakes, but they come with a price tag to match. Its a good way to justify huge rims though "I had to buy huge wheels for it, or the brakes wouldnt fit."

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Might the 200SX and Civic have lived harder lives with their previous owners than your C-Class. I think generally the typical owner of the first two possibly driver harder more often than the latter?

 

[Adam230K]

Might the 200SX and Civic have lived harder lives with their previous owners than your C-Class. I think generally the typical owner of the first two possibly driver harder more often than the latter?

My c-class is an import and i had to replace quite a long list of wear/tear items on it when i got it (i have been driving it for a long time now) but i wouldn't say its had an easy life.

The c-class i had before this one i got at 100k miles and it was in better condition then the one i have now. it had 8 owners and i only had to replace pads and tyres 3 times to 179k and 1 water pump, its probably the influential reason of me liking mercs

 

[detomaso]

I certainly drove my Civic hard, it was difficult not to especially when I swapped the suspension for a full Integra type-R set up. Likewise, when I upgraded the brakes I just went for standard discs with uprated pads and braided hoses after reading mixed reviews/remarks about cross-drilled and grooved discs. It was an everyday commuting car so I wanted it to be relatively civilised but fun on the country roads to work.

I don't ever think I could drive the 190e like I did the Civic, it's just not that tye of car.

 

[Spoonman]

Grooved and cross drilled discs are supposed to disepate heat a lot better, but Ive heard of cross-drilled discs being a problem on the road as the holes get clogged up, from what I heard grooved discs are the way to go but never having owned either Im not the one to say for sure.