More Space For Cyclists And Pedestrians - Discuss

[Darrell]

Oh , further to my suggestion of registering drivers rather than vehicles , so that people with multiple vehicles need only pay one quota of VED , regardless of how many vehicles they have , because they can only ever drive one vehicle at any given time , and thus a saving can be made .

It seems to me this would work nicely hand in hand with road pricing , which seems inevitable in congested cities and on privately funded roads in years to come . If people are going to be charged on miles driven , it should not matter if that mileage is all in one vehicle or spread across several .

Having a low , flat rate for the entitlement to drive , then a charge for driving on the most congested roads at the busiest times , strikes me as a reasonable and fair system . Commute regularly in busy cities at peak times , you pay more ; drive at quieter times when roads are less busy , you pay less ; drive only in rural areas when traffic is minimal , you pay no road charging fees at all .

And , of course , with a system of drivers being registered instead of vehicles , each driver pays for their own mileage , and not that of family members or colleagues who may drive the same vehicle .

I think you’re missing the whole concept of cycling.

It’s all about freedom. The notion of having something in the garage that you can simply jump on to get somewhere a bit quicker, lose a few kilos or get a little fitter is what it’s all about.

Kids have met up and mucked about on their bikes for decades, it’s given them their first taste of freedom and you appear to want to regulate it and tie it up in knots. In other words ….money.

Leave it be, move on and spend a bit of quality time with your family.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

That does sound like a reasonable and fair system, especially for those with multiple cars living and working in small towns or relatively rural areas.

It’s not so fair and reasonable for low income families with one car, and especially those who need to use two cars living and working in cities, large towns and using major routes to get to work at times they cannot pick and choose.

Since COVID a fairly large proportion of the people who could reasonably work from home without travelling do so regularly now. The people who are still travelling are the people who cannot reasonably work from home and must travel.

It will double hit for those families because revenue lost by nit charging VED for those multiple cars sat idle will need to be recovered elsewhere, and if it’s from the per mile charging then it will be the people who must travel paying.

After posting the above I travelled (by car) into Birmingham City Centre. The volume of traffic from about 10 miles out was considerable, and especially once on the inside of the M6 at Spaghetti Junction.

I’m pretty sure that those people’s in the traffic were queuing because they had to be there in peak time traffic, and would still have to make that journey if they were also carrying the considerable extra cost of offsetting VED for those in the very fortunate position of having multiple unused cars.

I didn’t ask the drivers sat in cars all around me, however I am fairly confident that they wouldn’t find it neither reasonable nor fair, especially those trying their very best but still struggling - or even failing - to make ends meet.

Consumption based “per mile” road charging is perhaps inevitable in time, but i believe that there should still be a standing charge for those who can afford the luxury of owning and not using multiple cars should carry a fair share of the burden.

 

[ToeKnee]

The problem with drivers paying extra per mile traveled is that, although the government gets more money, everyone else pays either for their own car or in extra costs for goods carried by lorry as I doubt the transport companies will absorb the cost themselves.

 

[Pontoneer]

It’s not so fair and reasonable for low income families with one car, and especially those who need to use two cars living and working in cities, large towns and using major routes to get to work at times they cannot pick and choose.

Since COVID a fairly large proportion of the people who could reasonably work from home without travelling do so regularly now. The people who are still travelling are the people who cannot reasonably work from home and must travel.

It will double hit for those families because revenue lost by nit charging VED for those multiple cars sat idle will need to be recovered elsewhere, and if it’s from the per mile charging then it will be the people who must travel paying.

Agreed , but those people living and working in cities and large towns and travelling to work on major routes , at times they cannot pick and choose ..... these are probably the very people that the government , both national and local , would like to see shifted onto public transport - especially if all they are using their cars for is to transport themselves , and not any tools or equipment needed for their jobs , nor people who need to travel around for work ( and this can include tradesmen , doctors or district nurses , amongst many others who genuinely have real need of a car to do their job ; incidentally I know of one local GP who travels around on her e-bike to do housecalls around her city centre practice ) .

I think the point of road pricing , or per mile charging , is to try to discourage road use in the most congested areas at the busiest times - so people who find themselves in that situation are going to be hit no matter what else happens .

 

[Pontoneer]

After posting the above I travelled (by car) into Birmingham City Centre. The volume of traffic from about 10 miles out was considerable, and especially once on the inside of the M6 at Spaghetti Junction.

I’m pretty sure that those people’s in the traffic were queuing because they had to be there in peak time traffic, and would still have to make that journey if they were also carrying the considerable extra cost of offsetting VED for those in the very fortunate position of having multiple unused cars.

I didn’t ask the drivers sat in cars all around me, however I am fairly confident that they wouldn’t find it neither reasonable nor fair, especially those trying their very best but still struggling - or even failing - to make ends meet.

Consumption based “per mile” road charging is perhaps inevitable in time, but i believe that there should still be a standing charge for those who can afford the luxury of owning and not using multiple cars should carry a fair share of the burden.

Said people with multiple cars already avoid paying excess VED by SORN-ing cars in turn , or indeed many who have cars more than 40 years old are already exempt from these charges . it is still the case that you can only drive one car at a time , yet for those with multiple vehicles the government takes multiple loads of VED , even though only one car can be taking up road space and emitting exhaust gases at any one time ; it is a bit like when people change vehicles part way through the month and a new owner buys it , the government gets to keep that month's VED from the old owner and the new owner has to pay a second lot of VED for the same month .

The system I propose would just simplify the process and save on needless paperwork and admin hours .

Unfairness works in both directions .

 

[Pontoneer]

I think you’re missing the whole concept of cycling.

It’s all about freedom. The notion of having something in the garage that you can simply jump on to get somewhere a bit quicker, lose a few kilos or get a little fitter is what it’s all about.

Kids have met up and mucked about on their bikes for decades, it’s given them their first taste of freedom and you appear to want to regulate it and tie it up in knots. In other words ….money.

Leave it be, move on and spend a bit of quality time with your family.

No one is trying to curtail freedom , and this certainly isn't about generating revenue .

It IS about making the minority who damage other vehicles and ride off into the traffic , who hit pedestrians and run red lights accountable for their misdemeanours , and if it has a negative impact on the majority of responsible cyclists out there , they need to look to those who cause the trouble rather than anyone else . As city centres become ever busier with multiple bikes , the need for some forms of policing , control and accountability will increase .

There was a time , at the dawn of motoring , when cars didn't need to be registered , but as numbers increased the need for registration was understood and accepted .

The vastly increasing numbers of bikes in city centres is making the same change inevitable .

It was also the case , in the early 20th century ( and late 19th ) that there was no driving test , but the need for training and testing was also recognised and accepted - the same is true of cycling - most cyclists are fairly reasonable , even very good in their behaviour , but there is still a significant minority who behave very badly and need to be made accountable .

Training , testing and registration would go a long way to addressing this .

 

[Pontoneer]

The problem with drivers paying extra per mile traveled is that, although the government gets more money, everyone else pays either for their own car or in extra costs for goods carried by lorry as I doubt the transport companies will absorb the cost themselves.

That is already the case now , with HGVs paying thousands per annum in VED , these costs are already factored into distribution costs , and ultimately the prices charged at the checkouts .

It applies to food , fuel and everything else you can buy in the shops ( or online ) .

The only escape would be to take a leaf out of 'The Good Life' and grow all your own produce in your own garden !

 

[ALFAitalia]

Hawaii residents need to register their traditional and electric bicycles, but they are not required to have a licence and across the world, from Sark to Tonga and America to Australia, plus many European countries like Switzerland, have cycle registration, at least in big cities.

 

[ToeKnee]

That is already the case now , with HGVs paying thousands per annum in VED , these costs are already factored into distribution costs , and ultimately the prices charged at the checkouts .

It applies to food , fuel and everything else you can buy in the shops ( or online ) .

The only escape would be to take a leaf out of 'The Good Life' and grow all your own produce in your own garden !

I did say drivers paying EXTRA, ie above what they're already paying

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Agreed , but those people living and working in cities and large towns and travelling to work on major routes , at times they cannot pick and choose ..... these are probably the very people that the government , both national and local , would like to see shifted onto public transport

Without a doubt the commuter are prime targets for switching to public transport, however the buses, trams and trains are also full of people having to travel at the same time.

I sometimes do almost the same journey by train and it’s already standing room only - in my case having to stand on a 40 mile train journey into Birmingham - and it’s not a unique route.

The majority of those people on public transport will be car owners and drivers, and the reason they’re not driving is because the congestion makes public transport more palatable.

Not all towns are the same, I suspect it’s much worse in cities in major conurbations - and Birmingham is a good example - which is also where of struggling people are concentrated.

 

[ChipChop]

Hawaii residents need to register their traditional and electric bicycles, but they are not required to have a licence and across the world, from Sark to Tonga and America to Australia, plus many European countries like Switzerland, have cycle registration, at least in big cities.

Switzerlands vignette cycle registration scheme, which forced cyclists to have third party insurance, was phased out over a decade ago due to being unpopular. The only other European country that requires a form of cycle registration is Denmark and all that scheme entails is cycle manufacturers are required to give each bike they sell a VIN number. Without that VIN number insurance companies will refuse to pay out if a bike is stolen in DK.

Bicycle registration is therefore very much the exception not the rule in Europe. North Korea however requires cyclists to have a license and registration. Bicycles were even banned from the capital Pyongyang up until 1992 apparently.