New Mercedes-AMG C63 confirmed as 650hp hybrid

[Wolfie1]

Im sure musks rockets blowing up every other week cause much much more pollution than v8’s do in a year!

 

[Steve84N]

All of this extra performance is at odds with the general view on speed, which is becoming very draconian. The new hybrid power plants offer precious little character to enjoy at normal speed. It might be necessary due to the controlling legislation but I for one will be avoiding it as long as possible.

I'm actually very sad as I've been slowly climbing the car ladder for the last 18 years and currently on a C63. I would love to retire in 20 years' time and buy a big engined GT car but I'm doubtful it'll be possible. I only have limited means to own as many interesting cars as possible in the meantime, with all the usual demands on income like children, mortgage etc.

 

[FastLaneJB]

All of this extra performance is at odds with the general view on speed, which is becoming very draconian. The new hybrid power plants offer precious little character to enjoy at normal speed. It might be necessary due to the controlling legislation but I for one will be avoiding it as long as possible.

I'm actually very sad as I've been slowly climbing the car ladder for the last 18 years and currently on a C63. I would love to retire in 20 years' time and buy a big engined GT car but I'm doubtful it'll be possible. I only have limited means to own as many interesting cars as possible in the meantime, with all the usual demands on income like children, mortgage etc.

Speed limiting is indeed going to become very draconian and I’m concerned it’ll remove the desire to even have a fast car anymore. Still when your not on, going fast then surely having a higher fuel economy figure if it pulls it off is a bonus?

And before people say the normal “If you cannot afford the fuel, you shouldn’t buy the car” it’s not that. It’s more just being able to have a longer range between fill ups is convenient but also if your not hammering it at that point and just cruising, spending less on fuel regardless of how much money you do have is never a negative if when you need it, the performance is still there.

I’m just saying give it a chance. It’ll lose out in some ways to what we are used to like noise but could be so much better in other ways.

If you really must have a V8, just get the next gen E63 / E73 which I assume will have it. Not expecting it to be cheap though…

 

[Steve84N]

I'm with you on the range rather than cost of fuel. In my S204 C63 even driving carefully it won't do 300 miles. However, I need a non linear power delivery with sound to give me something to enjoy and interact with. The 205 C63 looks appealing as it's more of an all rounder as a family car but doesn't lose too much compared to the 206 C63.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

People weren’t keen on the idea of the M177/8 being a 4 litre, but years later it’s very highly regarded. Things are never as popular as they are when they’re about to stop.

 

[Skd884]

No coupe in the new c20

OFFICIAL: AMG’s 643bhp New C63! F1 Tech, EV Mode, BUT it’s not a V8!​

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[Steve84N]

Big difference though, the 4 litre was still a V8. Turbo 4s are just not as fun no matter which way you build them.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Big difference though, the 4 litre was still a V8. Turbo 4s are just not as fun no matter which way you build them.

Cannot argue with that but it’s not the old school apples to apples comparison anymore. There’s an e turbo so that should give it a lot of shove but more importantly the electric motor is going to give it some serious punch. I imagine until the hybrid E63 / E73 or whatever they call it comes out, this thing could be stepping on the toes of the current gen E63 in terms of pace.

It’s different is all. I don’t mind that, I’ve had a few V8’s, I’m in it for the ride so don’t mind trying something different. Not saying I’m gonna get this but I look forward to the reviews with an open mind.

One thing though is peak power for 10 seconds. If only it was like 12 seconds or something. Feels like it’s going to drop 100bhp right at the end of a quarter mile. 12 seconds would have let it hit peak power for the whole run.

 

[Steve84N]

The E turbo is a plaster on a problem created by downsizing, namely lag from needing a big turbo to make big power from a 2 litre four cylinder. Mercedes are saying the E motor has the power to run the turbo at full speed but they're not using it for that as it'll drain the battery too fast. The motor is just to get the response back and then the exhaust gases do the work as normal.

I haven't actually driven the 4 litre Biturbo but by all accounts lag is not an issue, as it shares the boost needed across two small turbos. With a remap and downpipes that makes 650hp all day long.

However, having just been out in my C63 with 'only' around 510hp anything more is pointless unless you live near the autobahn. If you do then you're going to want more than 10s of extra power. Mercedes could sell me a six cylinder with 400hp and I'd be a lot happier than a heavier car with more power.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The E turbo is a plaster on a problem created by downsizing, namely lag from needing a big turbo to make big power from a 2 litre four cylinder. Mercedes are saying the E motor has the power to run the turbo at full speed but they're not using it for that as it'll drain the battery too fast. The motor is just to get the response back and then the exhaust gases do the work as normal.

I haven't actually driven the 4 litre Biturbo but by all accounts lag is not an issue, as it shares the boost needed across two small turbos. With a remap and downpipes that makes 650hp all day long.

However, having just been out in my C63 with 'only' around 510hp anything more is pointless unless you live near the autobahn. If you do then you're going to want more than 10s of extra power. Mercedes could sell me a six cylinder with 400hp and I'd be a lot happier than a heavier car with more power.

Even on the autobahn, 10 seconds at full power isn’t a common occurrence, and a continuous 540 PS is still more than a (remapped) M156 C 63 so it ought to be sufficient for the autobahn. I suspect it will have have been appropriately tested for the needs of the home market.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Big difference though, the 4 litre was still a V8. Turbo 4s are just not as fun no matter which way you build them.

You’re right it was still a V8 and even then many still said it was the end of an era, too small, never buy another 63, etc.

Similar happened when the M157 was announced. And the M156. Not sure about when the M113K was released.

I’m looking forward to trying the new hybrid powertrain, I’ve never been anything other than impressed with each generation.

It will be interesting to see if it can do the traditional Jekyll & Hyde contrast like previous generations of 63 models.

That’s something that the 45 couldn’t quite pull off (in my opinion), I felt like I had to drive it a ten tenths, with no option to waft.

 

[Steve84N]

Given that it's the same basic engine as in the A45 I suspect you may be disappointed in the waftability department.

 

[Jibbajabba]

A well designed, well built, well maintained, low mileage (most V8s are) and relatively un stressed n/ a V8 can last many many many years.
Buy one now (new or used) and enjoy it for another 20 years potentially.
You'll have to spend money on suspension, tyres etc but for many who can afford AMGs, 20 years is a reasonable length of time towards the day they hang up their keys anyway....

The kids all want Tesla's now so let them fill their boots, or blood injected thousand dollar Nike's.....

Low mileage. Won’t be my e63s. It’s my daily and I intend to drive it until it begs for mercy.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Given that it's the same basic engine as in the A45 I suspect you may be disappointed in the waftability department.

For a while at least there will be other models capable of wafting. The upcoming 73 mode should be even better.

Of all platforms, I believe the C lends itself best to this powertrain as it was always a more intense driving experience than the other 63 models.

Another grudge match to take to the MBClub day out at the drag strip: V8 N/A versus V8 FI versus I4 H. Standard, I’ll bet a can of pop on the I4 H.

 

[FastLaneJB]

The E turbo is a plaster on a problem created by downsizing, namely lag from needing a big turbo to make big power from a 2 litre four cylinder. Mercedes are saying the E motor has the power to run the turbo at full speed but they're not using it for that as it'll drain the battery too fast. The motor is just to get the response back and then the exhaust gases do the work as normal.

I haven't actually driven the 4 litre Biturbo but by all accounts lag is not an issue, as it shares the boost needed across two small turbos. With a remap and downpipes that makes 650hp all day long.

However, having just been out in my C63 with 'only' around 510hp anything more is pointless unless you live near the autobahn. If you do then you're going to want more than 10s of extra power. Mercedes could sell me a six cylinder with 400hp and I'd be a lot happier than a heavier car with more power.

Not sure that's a completely fair way of putting it. Early turbo cars had a huge level of lag (Though a lovely feeling when you hit boost in my opinion). To improve that and many things have been done we've reached the stage of bi-turbo's where you have a small one that spools quickly then the bigger one to spool later to make more power. All the e turbo is doing is removing the requirement for the small turbo. You can have a single turbo and actually it can be larger (Hence the power increase here vs the A45) but have it spooled even when your sat at idle. I'd be expect for instance if you have this in track mode, even under heavy breaking before a corner it's going to keep that turbo spinning ready for you to boot it out of a corner.

If you have the hybrid tech in a car anyway I can only see this as a plus, the e turbo is I imagine lighter than adding another turbo plus packaging for it. After all you've got the weight of the battery anyway because your a hybrid. Also you can add larger turbos to make more power without worrying about the small turbo running out of puff before the big one is up to speed.

Sure they've said also it'll hit it's top speed even without electric assistance, obviously be a bit slower by that point but realistically it's going to be making 650 bhp for 10 seconds, that should get you nicely into the double digits then it'll drop to 550 bhp so the higher numbers it's going to slow down on but this is mostly a German country problem only. I imagine you'd still be far faster than most cars on the road so it'll be fine.

 

[Steve84N]

@FastLaneJB the Mercedes Biturbo engines use a parallel setup, not sequential with a smaller and bigger turbo. Parallel is one smaller turbo per bank of cylinders which allows faster spool and the volume needed is shared across the two (identical) turbos. The E motor really is just for spooling it up, not to run the turbo under power or replace a smaller turbo.

 

[FastLaneJB]

@FastLaneJB the Mercedes Biturbo engines use a parallel setup, not sequential with a smaller and bigger turbo. Parallel is one smaller turbo per bank of cylinders which allows faster spool and the volume needed is shared across the two (identical) turbos. The E motor really is just for spooling it up, not to run the turbo under power or replace a smaller turbo.

Ah OK I stand corrected though I believe Mercedes' themselves said on one of the videos about this engine that the reason it makes more power than it did in the A45 is because of a larger turbo. If they didn't have the e turbo to spool it up before there's enough exhaust gases then that bigger turbo would have added in more turbo lag.

I'm not an expert here but I see it as something vaguely like:

Smaller turbo / boost pressure spools at 2,500 rpm = 400 bhp
Larger turbo / boost pressure spools at 3,500 rpm = 450 bhp

More power = more turbo lag if that's the only way your increasing the power but if you've got the e turbo spooling you up from idle you can use that larger turbo and make another 50 bhp without the lag. You'd have less lag than the 2,500 rpm spooling turbo as you might spool up at 2,000 rpm for instance or lower even if you wanted. Again just random numbers as examples.

Don't think there's anything wrong with this tech at all, seems like it only brings benefits really. Obviously if you didn't have a hybrid system at all then your adding weight so on it's own maybe the power to weight ratio isn't worth it, I don't know. But seeing as they are already adding 200kg or so for the whole hybrid drive train, this e turbo is probably only a tiny fraction of that weight so the power to weight ratio is worth it. That and zero or close enough you won't notice it turbo lag is a bonus as well.

I'm down to change my current car in March 2022 so I'll be looking to try and test drive one of these if possible just to see what it's like as I'm curious for sure. Part of me is saying though that I don't drive much anymore, maybe just give up on a nice fast car for a bit until / if that changes. We shall see.

 

[Freak]

Does anyone else feel like this is the temporary sticking plaster. The hybrid market is the stepping stone to either full EV or another technology (Hydrogen maybe)?

This ticks the boxes for the company car drivers and the BIK I'm sure and also probably helps MB shift more cars due to this and the emissions tax (which is what it is all about for them at the end of the day).

I just feel that anyone buying one will regret it it 5-6 years time when the stop gap is dead and a full EV exists - hopefully without the C63 name, it just feels like Porsche and the 718 Boxster/Cayman where sales will plummet other than people wanting the brand/badge/cheap lease deal not the die hard petrol heads.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Does anyone else feel like this is the temporary sticking plaster. The hybrid market is the stepping stone to either full EV or another technology (Hydrogen maybe)?

This ticks the boxes for the company car drivers and the BIK I'm sure and also probably helps MB shift more cars due to this and the emissions tax (which is what it is all about for them at the end of the day).

I just feel that anyone buying one will regret it it 5-6 years time when the stop gap is dead and a full EV exists - hopefully without the C63 name, it just feels like Porsche and the 718 Boxster/Cayman where sales will plummet other than people wanting the brand/badge/cheap lease deal not the die hard petrol heads.

What company would give our C63’s as a company car? Don’t think that’s it, it’s the fleet average CO2 targets they have to meet that drive these changes.

It is obviously a stepping stone car. If it’s any good then one for a PCP / lease but as a car to own long term, probably not a great idea. Exactly the reasons you say, the tech might not age all that well longer term.

I’d say the same about a fully electric car currently as well even if they are the future. It’s still early days for them so the rate of change / improvement is going to be high. With things like solid state batteries on the horizon which could help electric cars get much closer to the weight of an ICE car. Faster charging will make older slower charging cars seem out of date fast. Or as energy density increases quite a bit making cars cheaper, your car with a less dense and more expensive battery isn’t going to keep its value nicely.

It’ll all settle down but not for a while. So either own an ICE for a while or lease a newer car.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Every car ever produced has been a stepping stone to the next, it’s not just an EV or hybrid thing. Every generation is better than the one which went before and is a step toward the one which follows.

There’s never a good time to buy technology, there’s always something better coming. So best to buy when you need to and buy what is likely to be the best-fit option for the period of expected ownership.