Second Baby On The Way

[hawk20]

SECOND BABY ON THE WAY
As posted earlier, I sold my S320cdi partly because with my wife working and so on, we really could do with two cars. Bought an A class as our second car (A180cdi Avantgarde SE auto) and have already done over 3,500 miles in that since September 22nd including our holiday trip to France and Spain.

We have been trying various options for our main car including the E class, ML and 5 series. Some may think I have gone completely mad as I have ordered another A class. Why?

Partly because I really like it. I like seeing 50mpg when diesel has gone over £1 a litre round here. I like its funky looks. It is comfortable. And surprisingly roomy with more legroom in the front than the 5 series (which I need). And so easy to park. I go to the High Street and slip into places which with the S class I could never have dreamed of. I like the thought that the depreciation is only a fraction of what I have sadly got used to. And I was amazed how good it was travelling on the Continent and us doing over 400 miles in a day, several times, and not feeling too bad at all at the end of it.

We cruised at the same speed as we cruised the year before in the S class. OK the noise level is a bit higher; the ride is not as soft and as forgiving as the amazing S class ride, but it is pretty damn good. It took all of our luggage and recently we took two large friends to a dinner dance and we all fitted in just fine. Outside it is by no means large, but inside it is the equal of many good sized saloons.

So now after many years in large Mercedes saloons (10 or 11 from memory, mainly E’s but also two C’s and an ML270cdi) I now opt for the baby of the marque and two of them at that.

They are both automatic 180cdi’s; my wife’s is Avantgarde and mine will be Elegance. Main difference is smaller wheels on Elegance and hence a bit softer ride, Artico man-made leather and Maastrich cloth combined seats in Avantgarde, which look really good, but just cloth in the Elegance and a few other details that do not amount to much. Fortunately we managed to get an Avantgarde without sports suspension.

Extras we both have include parktronic, telephone pre wiring, electric folding mirrors, 6cd changer, comfort seat pack (gives adjustment for height, seat squab angle and an adjustable lumbar support in both front seats for a mere £80) and most important manual adjustment of steering column rake and reach (for £115) so both of us can get a really comfortable driving position, despite my being 6ft and Susan 5ft 3in.

Much as I liked COMAND on the S class, I did find the out-of-date maps annoying as well as the inability to update it except by buying a new disc each year for £250. And no speed camera warnings. And no 7 digit postcode capability. So we have gone for a Garmin from Halfords which proved its worth in France and Spain and is now used regularly here. Halfords said the Garmin is much more reliable than the TomTom which is giving them numerous failures.

So early in November we shall have two A’s to care for. And I am glad to be looking forward to it. It feels like opting out of the large, impressive, high maintenance car market with the horrendous depreciation we have all seen growing over the years. If someone else was paying, of course I would choose an S or an E, but since I am paying this feels like almost a return to sanity.

I shall never forget the joys of driving the superlative S class. I looked forward to it every day. But I shall also remember less fondly being told after 11,000 miles that the tyres were almost illegal and that a new set would be just under £1,000. Ouch!

 

[A210AMG]

Hello,


With our first little one on the way both my car a bmw 330 m=sport convertible and my wifes and Mx5 were swapped.

I got the ML and the wife and A class, ours is the older shape A class but the A210 AMG so quite rare, from what we paid and seeing what they go for on piston heads it loses very little. My wife regulary gets over 40mpg and sometimes nearly 45mpg so don't know what she would get out of a derv.

I also like the B class its grown on me and the R class, as for fule my dad has a E320cdi Estate and he gets over 40mpg with a recent trip to dover 50mpg so even the big mercs can be frugal.

Have you gone for the same colours? you will have to get consecutive number plates....will look cool on the drive

Enjoy the cars

 

[Robbo]

Hawk,

I think you're just ahead of the curve. In a few years we will all be driving small fuel efficient cars like the A class as big saloon cars and 4x4s will be taxed out of the market.

And we'll wonder why the hell we bothered in the past with bigger cars.

Enjoy being a trendsetter!

I'm seriously considering buying the new Audi A3 1.9tdi e. congestion charge exempt, £35 road tax and 60 odd mpg combined. And I bet the depreciation will be glacial too. Looks like a very sensible option.

 

[television]

I saw last night that there is a £9k cash back when buying an R class

 

[crockers]

I saw last night that there is a £9k cash back when buying an R class

Or...Buy two and get an A class free....???

 

[television]

Or...Buy two and get an A class free....???

Lol I bet hawk never thought of that

 

[hawk20]

Lol I bet hawk never thought of that

No I didn't. But I did try the R class SWB and have a few times. But, believe me or believe me not, it has less legroom in the front than an A class (and with the seat up high where I like it, it swings forward to give even less legroom:- designed by a pimplehead). Then it has less legroom in the back as well. What an achievement. And finally it has less room in the boot as well!
Try a B class side by side with an R and you will really be amazed. Really sad that moronic designers on work experience were allowed to ruin what could have been an S class sized estate car.

The latest models have the option of an estate car layout -sort of. A 5 seater but still not a proper bench seat. I haven't tried the legroom yet.

 

[Gollom]

Really sad that moronic designers on work experience were allowed to ruin what could have been an S class sized estate car.

Oh no! Don't start GloJo off!!

 

[MBManInKen]

I think you're just ahead of the curve. In a few years we will all be driving small fuel efficient cars like the A class as big saloon cars and 4x4s will be taxed out of the market.

And we'll wonder why the hell we bothered in the past with bigger cars.

I think you're deluding yourself if you believe that "one size fits all". One of the reasons why there are so many brands and models on the market is precisely because different people have different requirements and preferences.

I have my own reasons for preferring a large saloon, and every time I get into something else, I am reminded strongly again why I have that preference. Nothing reminds me more of the exceptional qualities of my own s-class than driving rentals on business trips abroad or getting an A or C class on loan when mine is in for servicing.

Contrary to some, I do however not claim that my preferences must apply to others (so, I am not saying that in a decade we'll all be driving top of the range LWB saloons). I would think it pretty grim if we'd all be alike.

As for the tax issue: artificially twisting this market reality by using taxation to force us all into the same straight-jacket does not change that underlying reality. It just is an attempt to suppress it and I predict that eventually it will fail.

And not all of us make car decisions based solely on dosh. For me having no car and renting one when I need it, would be the rational, economic decision. I go to work by tube, so my car is solely there for private, pleasure use. With rationality, that has little to do. But it also means that using a money incentive is not going to work at all in terms of getting me to give up driving a large saloon with a big V8.

 

[hawk20]

I think you're deluding yourself if you believe that "one size fits all". One of the reasons why there are so many brands and models on the market is precisely because different people have different requirements and preferences.

I have my own reasons for preferring a large saloon, and every time I get into something else, I am reminded strongly again why I have that preference. Nothing reminds me more of the exceptional qualities of my own s-class than driving rentals on business trips abroad or getting an A or C class on loan when mine is in for servicing.

Contrary to some, I do however not claim that my preferences must apply to others (so, I am not saying that in a decade we'll all be driving top of the range LWB saloons). I would think it pretty grim if we'd all be alike.

As for the tax issue: artificially twisting this market reality by using taxation to force us all into the same straight-jacket does not change that underlying reality. It just is an attempt to suppress it and I predict that eventually it will fail.

And not all of us make car decisions based solely on dosh. For me having no car and renting one when I need it, would be the rational, economic decision. I go to work by tube, so my car is solely there for private, pleasure use. With rationality, that has little to do. But it also means that using a money incentive is not going to work at all in terms of getting me to give up driving a large saloon with a big V8.

I used to feel the same. And I agree we certainly don't want a onesize fits all world. Horrid.

But equally nobody 'needs' a 5 litre V8 on today's roads and if the govt chooses to make it dear enough vast numbers will be put off. In fact, several dealers I know say that big petrol engined cars are now almost unsaleable. For most of us, if we had to pay a congestion/pollution charge of £25 per day from our own pocket, with no tax deduction, we would shy away from anything in band G. And that is the choice for many in London now.

Sales rarely drop to zero for anything due to taxation. But it does cause sales to fall a'plenty if applied with a will. First you get the dealers finding it hard to sell. Then comes horrendous depreciation on new. Then new sales fall away sharply and the supply begins to dry up. As fuel goes to £5 and £6 per gallon, the number of people who will want 20mpg cars to fund via their own pocket will inevitably decline. In fact, every Merc dealer I meet says it is happening now.

 

[MBManInKen]

But equally nobody 'needs' a 5 litre V8 on today's roads and if the govt chooses to make it dear enough vast numbers will be put off. In fact, several dealers I know say that big petrol engined cars are now almost unsaleable. For most of us, if we had to pay a congestion/pollution charge of £25 per day from our own pocket, with no tax deduction, we would shy away from anything in band G. And that is the choice for many in London now.

Which just confirms the point I made: there is little real shift in preferences and requirements, it's just artificially trying to push people in some direction.

It's not that in driving a large 5L petrol engine I would have been at any point over the last decades part of the majority.

What does surprise me a bit from someone like Ken Livingstone, who is supposedly from traditional socialist beliefs, is that he favours policies that in effect reinforce the contrast between the many average earners and those who will continue to drive what they like.

I have a private parking space in a big underground car park here in Kensington, inside the congestion charge zone. It's full of large, big petrol mercedes, ferrari, aston, bentley, porsche cars. Somehow I doubt that many of those will change to small cars next year when the 25/day charge is brought in. I have already said that 25/day or not, I will continue to drive my car.

 

[Robbo]

I didnt really mean that there would be no large saloons and 4x4s around as there are always people who will pay whatever price they need to in order to drive a big car. However, big car drivers are going to become more and more of a minority over the coming years as many of us need to think with our wallets and nobody really needs a huge engined high emission car.

 

[hawk20]

Which just confirms the point I made: there is little real shift in preferences and requirements, it's just artificially trying to push people in some direction.

It's not that in driving a large 5L petrol engine I would have been at any point over the last decades part of the majority.

What does surprise me a bit from someone like Ken Livingstone, who is supposedly from traditional socialist beliefs, is that he favours policies that in effect reinforce the contrast between the many average earners and those who will continue to drive what they like.

I have a private parking space in a big underground car park here in Kensington, inside the congestion charge zone. It's full of large, big petrol mercedes, ferrari, aston, bentley, porsche cars. Somehow I doubt that many of those will change to small cars next year when the 25/day charge is brought in. I have already said that 25/day or not, I will continue to drive my car.

Yes. I am sure the super-rich in Kensington and elsewhere will continue to spend on big petrol engined cars. BUT the 'less rich' will not. And the 'less rich still' definitely won't. And some, even of the super-rich will care about the environmental messages as they reach screeching point (right or wrong). Combined effect will be -is already- declining sales of many big cars and 4x4's. Look how much Mercedes are having to give away to shift ML's and GL's --new offers every month now. Free upgrade to the 4.2 litre and some asking if they can have it without even though it is free! No man is an island. We are all affected by these pressures and the actions of others.

Buy a 5.5 E class and a year later it has lost half its value. that's over £30k destroyed in a year. yes, some will wear it -especially if the company, the shareholder and the taxpayer are forking out much of it. But few, and getting fewer. And taxes and social pressures will make it fewer still.

 

[MBManInKen]

I hinted (apparently too subtle ) before at the fact that in terms of global car production and sales figures, large engined cars and executive saloons have always been a fairly small segment. Current trends in taxation etc might push the numbers a bit here or there, this changes little in practice though.

In reality, most cars on the roads are already fairly similar, mid-sized diesel engined cars. Taxation might push that segment to downsize a bit, but that will effect the mid field a lot more than the extremes.

You lot make it sound as if it did make sense before in terms of depreciation, resale value, running cost, etc to buy V8 5L cars, whereas this now suddenly is no longer the case. The reality is that in monetary terms this has never made any sense. Increased taxation does not change that rational in any fundamental way for most of this segment's users. It does make a difference at the margins, for those "enthusiasts" who could about just manage this type of car in the past, but with the extra taxation will be pushed out of the segment. They are however not representative of the core market of that segment. And the segment itself is already fairly small in the overall market.

Taxation will have quantitatively a lot more effect on the middle field, as this is the majority and a group where monetary concerns are a prime factor in purchasing and running decisions.

 

[television]

This has been going on for more years than I care to remember.
My best friend with the max loaded 221 bought a S600 back around 1995 with all of the toys it cost him £100k. Some 9 months later and with I think it was 5k miles on the clock he got £30k in px for a SL500.

With the Suez crisis back in the 50's I was running 2 liter Standard Vangaurds when back then the average car was 8-10hp and always the same story in the press "no one wants big cars" yet through the 60's to the 80's I sold with ease every Rover 3liter to the Mk10 to XJ6 with ease and I could have sold more if I could have bought some, in fact it was a mint anglia that I took in PX that was hard to sell

 

[hawk20]

I hinted (apparently too subtle ) before at the fact that in terms of global car production and sales figures, large engined cars and executive saloons have always been a fairly small segment. Current trends in taxation etc might push the numbers a bit here or there, this changes little in practice though.

In reality, most cars on the roads are already fairly similar, mid-sized diesel engined cars. Taxation might push that segment to downsize a bit, but that will effect the mid field a lot more than the extremes.

You lot make it sound as if it did make sense before in terms of depreciation, resale value, running cost, etc to buy V8 5L cars, whereas this now suddenly is no longer the case. The reality is that in monetary terms this has never made any sense. Increased taxation does not change that rational in any fundamental way for most of this segment's users. It does make a difference at the margins, for those "enthusiasts" who could about just manage this type of car in the past, but with the extra taxation will be pushed out of the segment. They are however not representative of the core market of that segment. And the segment itself is already fairly small in the overall market.

Taxation will have quantitatively a lot more effect on the middle field, as this is the majority and a group where monetary concerns are a prime factor in purchasing and running decisions.

Well we are all guessing/estimating/forecasting as best we can. Here's my shot. You are talking as though today is like yesterday and not much is different. BUT today is not like the past. The £25 per day congestion charge is not a minor change but a massive one and it will have big effects. The pressure on 4x4's and the beginnings of govt action to curb bigger cars is new and just beginning. It will get worse. And Europe will join in IMO. A year ago 40% of cars sold over £30,000 were 4x4's. I'll bet my boots in a few years we shall see very different figures from that.

On the old ML the 500 petrol sold quite well. Now it is hardly worth importing the new one apparently. The switch is to diesel in a big way because the govt is raising tax on fuel more and more to make us choose more economic engines and world Supply and demand is pushing us there too with higher oil prices. We are not living through minor changes here. Mega changes; a tipping point.

 

[MBManInKen]

A year ago 40% of cars sold over £30,000 were 4x4's.

It's these kind of selective statistics that give statisticians a bad name as per Glojo's comment here...

 

[hawk20]

It's these kind of selective statistics that give statisticians a bad name as per Glojo's comment here...

I do not agree. If one wants to argue about whether sales are falling or not only the use of accurate statistics can provide us with the answer. And I am predicting that the proportion of 4x4's in the luxury car market will be seriously affected by the combined onslaught of govt taxation, congestion charging, and social and environmental pressures. There is no way of measuring that effect except by counting.

 

[MBManInKen]

I do not agree. If one wants to argue about whether sales are falling or not only the use of accurate statistics can provide us with the answer. And I am predicting that the proportion of 4x4's in the luxury car market will be seriously affected by the combined onslaught of govt taxation, congestion charging, and social and environmental pressures. There is no way of measuring that effect except by counting.

But Hawk, even you must see that this is an entirely different thing that you're suddenly talking about. My point was that in the overall car market, the 5L petrol engine market segment is relatively small and that its demography is less driven by considerations of "sensibility" and "monetary value" than elsewhere in the market.

Will there be a certain drop in the sale of such cars due to extra taxation? Yes, if the taxation is high enough. Will that fundamentally change the market as a whole? No.

 

[hawk20]

But Hawk, even you must see that this is an entirely different thing that you're suddenly talking about. My point was that in the overall car market, the 5L petrol engine market segment is relatively small and that its demography is less driven by considerations of "sensibility" and "monetary value" than elsewhere in the market.

Will there be a certain drop in the sale of such cars due to extra taxation? Yes, if the taxation is high enough. Will that fundamentally change the market as a whole? No.

OK. Let's agree we shall need some figures on sales to show who is right. You expect fairly minor changes in the sales of big petrol engined cars and I think we are at a tipping point where environmental concerns, government taxation and social pressures will cause a very significant and long lasting decline in the sales of these cars. Not a minor change but a major one. Who know's who is right? Nobody. We shall just have to wait and see.

By the way today the price of oil went above $93 a barrel. Only a few years back it was twenty dollars a barrel. Massive changes in the world scene are upon us.