So final tax for EV cars in 2023

[markjay]

I like him.....his views pretty much mirror mine!!

I actually agree with him as well.

 

[Bellow]

It was on in the background while I was busy with something else but I think I got the gist of it. I agree in as much as the car is becoming overly emphasised but apart from a hint on how to cut ,mileage ('logistics' ) he went straight to other sources of pollution that are beyond his or our control completely bypassing changes we can make at the personal level.

 

[Doodle]

then EVs do not produce brake particles.

Sorry, but that's simply untrue.

Some EVs have sufficiently strong regen braking (sometimes called single pedal mode) that the times you need to use the brakes is minimal - in the week I had an i3 on loan I only used it for a handful of serious stops as the off-throttle regen was enough to do the job. I would hazard a guess that your Ioniq does similar.

But there are plenty that do not and you'll still be using the brake to stop. I have to ask, apart from your Ioniq how many other EV's have you actually driven?

 

[clk320x]

Sorry, but that's simply untrue.

Some EVs have sufficiently strong regen braking (sometimes called single pedal mode) that the times you need to use the brakes is minimal - in the week I had an i3 on loan I only used it for a handful of serious stops as the off-throttle regen was enough to do the job. I would hazard a guess that your Ioniq does similar.

But there are plenty that do not and you'll still be using the brake to stop. I have to ask, apart from your Ioniq how many other EV's have you actually driven?

Early Model S cars did not have ‘single pedal mode’ but the regen assists in braking so most people achieve well over 200k miles on a set of pads… my friends car for example now on 280k on the original discs/pads it left the factory! Again - the lesser of two evils.

Most new EVs have incredibly strong regen braking and I think this will be focussed on more and more as models develop as it increases efficiency….

 

[Doodle]

If only every EV was as good as a Tesla. Meanwhile, back in the cheap seats you get regen that is frequently average and not necessarily variable. Leafs only got a proper e-pedal fairly recently (and initially only on their long range models). Renault only added increased regen to the Zoe a couple of months ago - it's an extra position on the gear shift that gives a fixed increase so you may still find yourself using the brakes to tune your stop. I believe the likes of the e-208 are similar.

And what for the used EV market where such technology hasn't filtered down to yet?

Bottom line - yes, without question the brake pads last longer, but the statement that EVs emit zero brake particles is patently laughable.

 

[markjay]

Sorry, but that's simply untrue.

Some EVs have sufficiently strong regen braking (sometimes called single pedal mode) that the times you need to use the brakes is minimal - in the week I had an i3 on loan I only used it for a handful of serious stops as the off-throttle regen was enough to do the job. I would hazard a guess that your Ioniq does similar.

But there are plenty that do not and you'll still be using the brake to stop. I have to ask, apart from your Ioniq how many other EV's have you actually driven?

I've test driven a Model-X and ID.4 but I did not have any other pure-EV long-term other than the IONIQ 5. Possibly the regenerative braking in the IONIQ 5 is indeed more smart than other cars, I don't know. In any event I understood from the dealer that the discs and pads get little use and should be good 'for the life of the car'.

 

[Doodle]

ISTR dealers also said the same about fluid changes on autoboxes at one point.

They’re probably right though, with strong regen the brakes stand a good chance of seeing out the usable life of the battery based on observations thus far.

 

[markjay]

OK, I'll take a photo of the discs tomorrow and post it here

14 months and ~3000 miles.

 

[SW18]

OK, I'll take a photo of the discs tomorrow and post it here

14 months and ~3000 miles.

Does the handbook / dealer advise to use the brakes from time to time to clear the rust off and stop them from pitting?

Because my driving is infrequent but long trips, I do notice the brake discs suffering. I try to make sure to clean them off each time I drive the car, to prolong their life.

 

[markjay]

Does the handbook / dealer advise to use the brakes from time to time to clear the rust off and stop them from pitting?...

Apparently the car does this automatically. If the mechanical brakes have not been used due to the driving mode, the brakes will be lightly applied on each 10th braking to prevent surface rust buildup and seized callipers. Again, no idea if only the IONIQ 5 does that, or it's a common feature on EVs.

 

[SW18]

Apparently the car does this automatically. If the mechanical brakes have not been used due to the driving mode, the brakes will be lightly applied on each 10th braking to prevent surface rust buildup and seized callipers. Again, no idea if only the IONIQ 5 does that, or it's a common feature on EVs.

Very clever

 

[markjay]

Very clever

I guess that when the motor and braking are electric/electronic, it opens the door to all sorts of sophisticated clever software-based solutions (and bugs.... )

What is also interesting is that - according to the consumption statistics - when driving in town the car recuperates back into the battery up to one third of the total power used (in kWh), which suggests that the car is using the regenerative braking quite extensively, especially when considering the loses involved in converting chemically-stored electricity into kinetic energy and then back into electricity.

 

[Bellow]

I guess that when the motor and braking are electric/electronic, it opens the door to all sorts of sophisticated clever software-based solutions (and bugs.... )

I'm reassured reading of the 'every tenth application' strategy. The prospect of a seized due to lack of use brake then being required to function is an accident in the making. Complete brake rebuild every few years to rectify seized units would be the norm without it I expect. Thankfully, some forethought was deployed.

What is also interesting is that - according to the consumption statistics - when driving in town the car recuperates back into the battery up to one third of the total power used (in kWh), which suggests that the car is using the regenerative braking quite extensively, especially when considering the loses involved in converting chemically-stored electricity into kinetic energy and then back into electricity.

Is that from data your own car generated? Would it be higher on the AWD model (ie, restricted in the RWD to prevent rear wheel locking)?

 

[markjay]

....Is that from data your own car generated? Would it be higher on the AWD model (ie, restricted in the RWD to prevent rear wheel locking)?

That's a very good question. The AWD model has shorter range (and there's no option to permanently disable the FWD if you have AWD), but I don't know if the AWD car has even better recuperation efficiency because both motors participate in the regenerative braking. Will have a dive into the manual and report back.....

 

[Bellow]

That's a very good question. The AWD model has shorter range (and there's no option to permanently disable the FWD if you have AWD), but I don't know if the AWD car has even better recuperation efficiency because both motors participate in the regenerative braking. Will have a dive into the manual and report back.....

The level of regenerative braking available in a Tesla Series 3 Performance is more than could be sustained by braking applied to the rear axle alone. It would lock the wheels and spin the car. As a passenger I was convinced the driver had slammed the brake pedal. He hadn't. He'd merely lifted off the skinny pedal.

 

[st13phil]

The level of regenerative braking available in a Tesla Series 3 Performance is more than could be sustained by braking applied to the rear axle alone. It would lock the wheels and spin the car. As a passenger I was convinced the driver had slammed the brake pedal. He hadn't. He'd merely lifted off the skinny pedal.

Interesting that you mention the quite serious amount of regen braking that the Tesla Model 3 delivers when you lift off the "throttle". I dare say I'd get used to it in time but when I drove a friend's Model 3 I found it rather sensitive to the extent that it was very difficult to make smooth progress if I wanted to shift position in the seat slightly, or the position of my foot on the pedal.

 

[markjay]

Interesting that you mention the quite serious amount of regen braking that the Tesla Model 3 delivers when you lift off the "throttle". I dare say I'd get used to it in time but when I drove a friend's Model 3 I found it rather sensitive to the extent that it was very difficult to make smooth progress if I wanted to shift position in the seat slightly, or the position of my foot on the pedal.

The IONIQ 5 (and I believe also the Model 3) have the 'one pedal' mode, where the car stops and brakes if the driver lifts the foot off the accelerator, I.e the driver (almost) never needs to use the brake pedal. The required braking force is determined automatically based on various sensors and algorithms. I tried this mode, and I am not a fan - I guess that over 45 years of driving cars with two or three pedals worked against me... Also, it isn't the most energy-efficient mode - using two pedals and allowing the car to decide how much regenerative braking it uses seems to work best.

 

[Bellow]

Interesting that you mention the quite serious amount of regen braking that the Tesla Model 3 delivers when you lift off the "throttle". I dare say I'd get used to it in time but when I drove a friend's Model 3 I found it rather sensitive to the extent that it was very difficult to make smooth progress if I wanted to shift position in the seat slightly, or the position of my foot on the pedal.

It's configurable to taste. Just so happens that my mate's (yours too?) taste is towards brutality!

 

[clk320x]

Interesting that you mention the quite serious amount of regen braking that the Tesla Model 3 delivers when you lift off the "throttle". I dare say I'd get used to it in time but when I drove a friend's Model 3 I found it rather sensitive to the extent that it was very difficult to make smooth progress if I wanted to shift position in the seat slightly, or the position of my foot on the pedal.

Yes you 100% get used to it, and when you drive a car without regen afterwards the first stop is a little scary!

 

[Steveml63]

Hi,
On our Model 3 Performance - there are three modes for regen braking - it has Hold, Creep & Roll modes!
I use the Hold mode - which means car will come to a complete stop (although you still need to use normal brakes until you get tuned to when to lift off when approaching a roundabout, lights etc.). Roll mode means the car is effectively in neutral - so will freewheel when you come to a halt - on a slope it would therefore roll.

Creep mode emulates a normal automatic - if you take foot off brakes, car will gently creep forward.
Last night we went out for dinner and I came into a traffic light controlled roundabout hot in our ICE car - took foot off the throttle and then quickly realised that I would need to apply brakes to slow down for the corner - as car was not slowing down like it does on the Tesla!
It is surprising how quickly you get used to new ways of driving!

If you put car in Track mode - there is a lot more control over the regen braking system, along with how much power you want from front and rear motors - if you allow most power to rear motor and turn off traction control (have not tried Track mode yet - but apparently you can turn off all the nanny assistance systems) - you can get the car to drift!

Cheers
Steve