Whats your strategy for year 2030 / ban of ICE vehicles?

[markjay]

In the short term such a trip is also bedevilled by a need for multiple charging accounts, problematic protocols, and out of order chargers.

As much as the massive push convert us all to EVs by governments in Europe annoys people, one positive outcome is that they are trying very hard to make it a workable proposition. The EU is heavily invested in standardisating EV charging, thus simplifying the process for motorists. This is perhaps one area where we all stand to benefit from the otherwise much-hated drive of the EU to standardise everything.....

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

As much as the massive push convert us all to EVs by governments in Europe annoys people, one positive outcome is that they are trying very hard to make it a workable proposition. The EU is heavily invested in standardisating EV charging, thus simplifying the process for motorists. This is perhaps one area where we all stand to benefit from the otherwise much-hated drive of the EU to standardise everything.....

Absolutely, it’s what the EU does.

My point was only that, in the short term, the economics and logistics aren’t all quite as rumoured.

Give it a decade and the chargers will be there. And vehicle ranges will also be much better between top ups.

Just don’t expect motorway energy prices to be the same as your home domestic rate. The energy companies, motorway operators and taxman need their share.

EV’s are the future, for sure. But like demolishing and replacing your appallingly energy inefficient home, it will take a little bit longer than many imagine.

 

[markjay]

Just don’t expect motorway energy prices to be the same as your home domestic rate. The energy companies, motorway operators and taxman need their share.

True.

At current, cheap home night tariff is around 12-13p per kW (and some people say they pay as low as 7p).

The tariff on slow chargers in Central London is currently 24p, increasing with charging speed and up to 79p for the faster charging rates.

I worked out that at 79p per kW, the cost per mile using my EV will be roughly the same as the cost per mile driving my 1.6L petrol C-Class.

Motorway services will likely have mostly high speed chargers, and the price per kW will be quite high.

 

[tylerdurden]

So for me, all new purchases will be EV.

I’m done with petrol. Highly complex machinery. Costs of repair and maintenance too much. Had an EV for 2 y now and love it. Really enjoy driving my c class v6 petrol but know it’s history.

If I was leasing for a few years it wouldn’t bother me but I’ve always purchased outright and have been known to keep come cars for 7-9y before getting bored

 

[Petrol Pete]

Government drops demand for electric charging points in some premises

The Government has backtracked on plans requiring new and existing non-residential buildings in England to have at least one electric car charger if they have a car park for 20 cars or more.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[ToeKnee]

As the tax income from ice decreases (fuel duty/vat and RFL) surely the government will start to increase taxation from ev's either increasing their RFL or introducing some type of pay-per-mile charge. The question is how much can the gov lose because as soon as the cost of running an EV increases less people will be willing to change?

 

[Spider10]

Ive mentioned this on numerous occasions, EVs WILL be taxed in some form or another you don't get anything for free especially if the government are losing out

 

[markjay]

As the tax income from ice decreases (fuel duty/vat and RFL) surely the government will start to increase taxation from ev's either increasing their RFL or introducing some type of pay-per-mile charge. The question is how much can the gov lose because as soon as the cost of running an EV increases less people will be willing to change?

EVs are cheaper to run overall because they hardly need any servicing. Kia and Hyundai also provide very long warranties. Even if EVs are taxed to the same extent that ICE cars are, they would still be a sensible choice for the frugal-minded.

 

[Dryce]

EVs are cheaper to run overall because they hardly need any servicing. Kia and Hyundai also provide very long warranties. Even if EVs are taxed to the same extent that ICE cars are, they would still be a sensible choice for the frugal-minded.

Not necessarilly .... overall.

If you pay £10K more to get an equivalent EV over an ICE then that's a substantial difference to make up with servicing and it remains to be seen on how mass market EVs will depeciate and ultimately how battery replacement (or reconditioning?) wull eventually work.

One observation I would make is that in the main the EVs I know of don't do high mileage. Now on the plus side that means charging is infrequent. On the downside it means the potential cost per mile is high.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Government drops demand for electric charging points in some premises

The Government has backtracked on plans requiring new and existing non-residential buildings in England to have at least one electric car charger if they have a car park for 20 cars or more.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I never understand this government intervention thing.

If a charger “makes a bit of money,” why won’t premises put them in? It’s a service for users and a spot of revenue.

I’ve got plenty of on street chargers nearby, and they should pay for themselves. No-one uses them much, but that’s a reflection of people’s access to home chargers. In time more will connect.

Like dishwashers, flat screen tellies, plumbed in loudspeakers or car chargers in all new homes, if people want them, they’ll buy them.

 

[markjay]

Not necessarilly .... overall.

If you pay £10K more to get an equivalent EV over an ICE then that's a substantial difference to make up with servicing and it remains to be seen on how mass market EVs will depeciate and ultimately how battery replacement (or reconditioning?) wull eventually work.

One observation I would make is that in the main the EVs I know of don't do high mileage. Now on the plus side that means charging is infrequent. On the downside it means the potential cost per mile is high.

I did post before my view that once the technology has settled and most of the R&D recouped, EVs should be cheaper than ICE cars because the direct cost of manufacture is lower. The key issue will be cost of batteries, and I expect that there'll be a breakthrough there as well (see my post about the Factorial-Mercedes partnership for example). Of course these are all predictions on my part, others may differ.

 

[190]

I never understand this government intervention thing.

It's actually refreshing to see the government recognise there are other things at stake besides the mad push of the green agenda, especially in the present circumstances where small businesses are under financial pressure.

The next step should be the removal of green subsidies from energy bills before we are hit with a 50% hike in prices from April. This common sense approach has already taken place in Europe so Boris has no excuse.

Government intervention = an inefficient way to achieve an end. I've no doubt that much of the income derived from subsidies is wasted in any case.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It's actually refreshing to see the government recognise there are other things at stake besides the mad push of the green agenda, especially in the present circumstances where small businesses are under financial pressure.
The next step should be the removal of green subsidies from energy bills before we are hit with a 50% hike in prices from April. This common sense approach has already taken place in Europe so Boris has no excuse.
Government intervention = an inefficient way to achieve an end. I've no doubt that much of the income derived from subsidies is wasted in any case.

We'll have to gently disagree on this one.

My gripe is with cackhanded government intervention, they could have insisted two decades ago that all new homes should have CAT-5 cabling, or a decade ago that new houses be fitted with with 55" TV screen holders, or now that every home and office car park should have a (whatever power) car charger installed. Policies which don't reflect consumer need, and which go technically out of date embarrassingly quickly.

Taxation and energy subsidies? Tough one.

To a degree a tax break can nudge people into desired behaviour, but the tax woman is never that generous, especially when she draws £70 billion a year from the motorist. But oft-times she's just nudging us into paying more wretched tax by offering a seeming discount. (Look at the idjits buying £40k Teslas, thinking that they're getting an income tax break - they've forgotten that they're paying more VAT, import duties, and taxes on car distributors by being induced into buying new motors)

Were the tax breaks on wind farms justified? Maybe they did kickstart the industry and UK manufacturing?

"Energy price rises next year?" Wait for the whooshing sound as COP26 commitments get thrown out of the window. 2021: "Reduce energy usage and CO2 output." 2022: "Here's a subsidy to help you maintain your energy usage and CO2 output."

What's happening going forward? With Ecos holding the balance of power in Germany, I'm expecting more German and EU "Eco" subsidies and tax breaks, not less.

 

[Dickster]

I agree Mike, I’m not a fan of subsidies. I’ve read that wind farms wouldn’t be viable without them - at least of lot of them.

 

[DrNick]

That’s kind of the point. It’s a chicken and egg situation. Sometimes you have to engineer a situation that eventually means the economics follows. Wind farms will be viable in the long run. But if “we” want them now then we pay in advance.

 

[markjay]

(Look at the idjits buying £40k Teslas, thinking that they're getting an income tax break - they've forgotten that they're paying more VAT, import duties, and taxes on car distributors by being induced into buying new motors)

This depends on what the alternative is.

The concept of a company cars on a business lease has been with us for many years now, it's nothing new.

At current, a business lease on an EV instead of on an ICE car is a no-brainer, thanks to government incentives.

And, a business lease is for a set period, so it's not very likely that people will get their cars changed more frequently at result of these incentives, instead they'll simply get an EV when the lease is next up for renewal.

Will they get nicer (I.e. more expensive) cars than they did before, now that the BIK on EVs is low? Possibly, though with the low BIK the net cost to them will still be the same.

So for these group of users, an EV makes perfect financial sense.

But for anyone not getting their EV on a business lease, the financial benefits are less obvious.

And, as you rightly pointed-out, they might change their cars sooner than they normally would, in order to get an EV, which of course means more expense for them.

However, there are many reasons why private owners buy EVs.

Firstly, perceived savings is a very common factor. Private owners bought Diesel cars for years "because they are more frugal", Londoners bought Prious because "there's no Congestion Charge", etc - many private owners look only at very basic data such as fuel economy or insurance group, and are rarely bothered with TCO that takes into account depreciation, maintenance and servicing costs, etc. For these owners, the allure of 4 miles per kW at 12p per kW will be a significant factor, ignoring all others.

Then, many will buy an EV for a range of non-financial reasons. Because it's 'the right thing to do' (the government says so), or because they feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are 'doing their bit for the environment', or because they only do short local journeys which fit well with an EV, or because they are technophiles, or because they want a car that does two-point-something zero-to-sixty, or because they want a fun car, or because they want the neighbours to be envious... the list is long. To sum it up... there's zero financial benefit in buying a C63... and yet I always wanted one (too late for me though....).

 

[190]

My gripe is with cackhanded government intervention, they could have insisted two decades ago that all new homes should have CAT-5 cabling, or a decade ago that new houses be fitted with with 55" TV screen holders, or now that every home and office car park should have a (whatever power) car charger installed. Policies which don't reflect consumer need, and which go technically out of date embarrassingly quickly.

Taxation and energy subsidies? Tough one.

I didn't need government intervention with CAT-5 to every room. Made that technically out of date mistake all on my own.

With the recent 33% increases in gas prices and another 50% likely in April I will not need any government persuasion to reduce gas consumption. I will be able to manage without the government subsidising my energy bill provided they remove the green levies not least because such levies have an element of robbing the poor to subsidise wind generators etc for the rich.

 

[Tonye]

Sometimes you have to engineer a situation

Every government in the last 40 years have given subsidies out to make their mad ideas work. Just look at the rail shambles now the handouts have gone.

 

[Dickster]

That’s kind of the point. It’s a chicken and egg situation. Sometimes you have to engineer a situation that eventually means the economics follows. Wind farms will be viable in the long run. But if “we” want them now then we pay in advance.

Absolutely it’s chicken and egg. Throughout the whole EV rollout, I’ve repeatedly read that the biggest barrier is the cost of the charging infrastructure required.

Not sure we know for definite that wind farms will, in all cases at least, be viable.
Only time will tell.

I have no faith whatsoever in those making the decisions. You only have to look at the heat pump cluster f*ck. it appears to be universally agreed that it will be a disaster, that is apart from those actually making the decisions..

An example of how badly handled the emissions thing is. In April 2023 it will be law that commercial property have to reach a certain energy rating. Otherwise it cannot be rented.

Our landlord had a survey done that rated the property way down, “G” I believe. Anyway, a fail requiring a lot of work. The cost of which will be passed onto us. So we had our own survey done and the building passed with a much lower rating. Now the surveyors are arguing with each other

Ps oh, and neither survey mentioned the very drafty sash windows. The first survey did insist we install a heat pump. Even though we just spent £4k on energy efficient electric heaters.

 

[Tonye]

government incentives.

More handouts to justify a plan.