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will lowering improve handling?

Shocks should be changed at least every 50,000 mile. I'll try and find a photo I took of how much you can compress a 50,000 mile shock absorber by hand compared to a new one. Mercedes will say rubbish "Shocks will do huge mileages" - yes they will go a long way until they fail an MOT or break but at 50,000 changing your shocks feels like buying a new car.

I now change shocks routinely at or before 50,000.
 
Olly lowered mine onto Bilstein shocks with Eiback springs (and replaced all of the worn bushes, ball joints, wishbones etc.) and there is a massive improvement. The cornering feels tighter, it's got a much more responsive turn in and the whole car seems easier to 'place'. Mine was very sloppy before i had it done, and handled just like you describe!

I'd suggest having a look to see how badly worn the components are, and then pricing up replacements/improved parts where needed. The price difference between standard shocks and the aftermarket lowered ones was not as much as you'd think! :D
 
thanks guys for all the advice here, only just caught up with the last few replies............had a once over today, and there is nothing obvious wrong with the car (broken or leaking), the car has 104000 miles on it so maybe worn parts.........question now is if i replace , do i replace with originals, that i may still find sloppy or upgrade with non originals
 
The old springs and dampers will be u/s. Just fit new ones and maybe some bushes as well and it will be as good as new..which will be just fine.
 
>>Another thread maybe.... it would be rude to hijack this topic.

If lowering the car affects dynamic index, as you said higher up, and if it's important, then, it's relevant for this thread, and not at all a hijack.
 
>>Another thread maybe.... it would be rude to hijack this topic.

If lowering the car affects dynamic index, as you said higher up, and if it's important, then, it's relevant for this thread, and not at all a hijack.

Not and easy topic to explain but here goes.....

Dynamic indexing or Inertia matching as it's sometimes known has been around almost as long as chassis have but it's value has only really ever been appreciated by those we tend to think of as the better chassis designers in the world, for instance both the E36 and E46 Bmw 3 series both have a DI of 1.00 (or as near as damn it) when you add an average weight driver.

DI is calculated knowing the overall mass, the distance between the front axle and the centre of gravity and the distance from the rear axle to the centre of gravity. By knowing these lengths you can calculate the chassis "instant centre" and DI is an expression of the length between "the length between the rear axle and the centre of gravity" and "length between the instant centre and the centre of gravity"

Please do bare in mind though that whilst having a good DI is really good news for a chassis it's not the be all and end all, you CAN fix a bad DI with enough chassis set-up

The lower the Dynamic Index the more agile and lively the chassis tends to feel. It's a very subjective thing but it's powerful, history suggests that drivers emotionally identify cars with DI's between 0.90 and 1.10 as cars that handle well. This is because the car with a DI of 1.00 tends to handle in a linear and predictable fashion, so when at the grip limit tend to behave in a way that’s intuitive to the average driver therefore the required steering corrections or throttle/brake responses seem to come "naturally".

The best technical summary I can give is to say that with the chassis at the grip limit, if you were to experience a variance in yaw demand from the front wheels (perhaps encountering a road feature that increases vertical load on the tyre) this would "increases rear slip angle" if the DI is lower than 1.00 but the same action "reduces rear slip angle" if the DI is greater than 1.00.... I hope that makes sense

Example, family cars, most tend to be a little higher than 1.00 and tend to get a lot more so as they are loaded with passengers or luggage. You would be amazed how massively far out some cars are. For instance the classic VW beetle which believe it are not has a weight distribution not too far away from 50/50 actually has a DI of 0.48 and I think it's a well know fact that an un-modified one is just straight up dangerous when approaching the grip limit. This is usually as a result of a project going to the design house before it goes to the dynamics engineers.
 
So, as DI is all about weight distribution relative to the position of the axles, lowering the car won't actually change the DI in any significant way.
 
DI is calculated knowing the overall mass, the distance between the front axle and the centre of gravity and the distance from the rear axle to the centre of gravity. By knowing these lengths you can calculate the chassis "instant centre" and DI is an expression of the length between "the length between the rear axle and the centre of gravity" and "length between the instant centre and the centre of gravity"

Sorry, I'm a bit lost here. Do you mean the measurement between the centerline of the front wheel bearings and the roll centre or do you mean the distance from the front and rear axles to the rotational centre of the vehicle longitudinally?

I assume you mean longitudely, so both front and rear tyres have the same amount of drift.
 
So, as DI is all about weight distribution relative to the position of the axles, lowering the car won't actually change the DI in any significant way.

The lowering changes the dynamic frequency since the chassis is no longer as fluid so to speak. A perfect 1.0 DI would be compromised by the Human frequency.

You both read as educated in chassis dynamics, don't you feel it's a little unfair to ask me for full explanations in such a huge field!
 
You both read as educated in chassis dynamics,

Not sure who you mean by this? If you are including me then no I'm not and am actually interested in what you are writing, so please do carry on. I have a basic knowledge so can relate to what you are saying if I ask enough questions.


So, as DI is all about weight distribution relative to the position of the axles, lowering the car won't actually change the DI in any significant way.

To be fair, Tony did say this wasn't the same topic as lowering prior to posting, so maybe it's not connected and is reliant on lowering the centre of gravity and stiffer springs/dampers to acieve less roll from a lowered car.

I've always understood that to be the case as the roll centre lowers faster than the CoG.
 
In a way, it's probably easier to begin with what DI isn't;

It isn't anything to do with your tyres (apart from what they weigh!)
It isn't anything to do with wheel geometry or alignment
It isn't anything to do with spring rates, suspension ratios or damper values
It isn't anything to do with suspension type or layout
It isn't anything to do with whether a car understeers or oversteers


It's all to do with where mass is on the vehicle, relative to the front and rear axles. The only way to change it is to move mass around - if you remove mass uniformly, you don't change DI, it's only changing the distribution that counts.

The calculation of DI comes down to an equation that looks a bit like K^2/ab.

k is the appropriate radius of gyration,
a is the longitudinal distance from the front axle to the c of g
b is the longitudinal distance from the c of g to the rear axle.

All of this can be projected into the plane of the road - there's no need to consider the height of anything, and so lowering a car can't change the DI significantly.

I say significantly, because there is a second order effect, because owing to the suspension geometry, the longitunal position of the wheel contacts will change by a tiny amount as the vehicle is lowered, but, this is a tiny effect compared with the lengths of a and b - even going from full bump to full rebound isn't going to change the product ab by much.

One non-mathematical way to consider DI is to imagine the car parked over a painted line on an ice rink. The line passes along the centreline of the car, directly under the centre of the front axle, and out, directly under the centre of the rear axle.

If you now imagine a hammer hitting the passenger side front hub, knocking the front of the car towards the driving side.

So, when the car comes to rest, a plumb bob that is dropped from the middle of the front axle will lie to the driver's side of the line in the ice.

If the DI is one, a similar plumb bob dropped from the middle of the rear axle will coincide with the line. In other words, a sudden change in sideforce (and hence slip angle) at the front axle results in no change at the rear axle.

For DI greater than 1, the rear axles plumb bob would be towards the driver's side of the line, and for less than 1, to the passenger side.

The only things missing from my rough description is that the car would really be travelling forwards.

----------------

This principle can also be applied in other planes.

For example, using the same formulation but using the radius of gyration in the pitch angle direction can tell you how the vehicle responds to a sudden bump on the front axle.

Another example - consider a driven live axle, and a simple beam dead axle, the two are kinematically similar, but, because of the weight of the diff in the middle, have a completely different DI. In this respect, having an beam axle with a DI of 1 is as close as you can get to independence with that set-up.
 
Not sure who you mean by this? If you are including me then no I'm not and am actually interested in what you are writing, so please do carry on. I have a basic knowledge so can relate to what you are saying if I ask enough questions.




To be fair, Tony did say this wasn't the same topic as lowering prior to posting, so maybe it's not connected and is reliant on lowering the centre of gravity and stiffer springs/dampers to acieve less roll from a lowered car.

I've always understood that to be the case as the roll centre lowers faster than the CoG.

Nice call.... Thank you.

Sometimes it feels like i only have to open my mouth and i am bombarded with questions. I love to help and be part of the solution but i don't like saturation.
 
>>To be fair, Tony did say this wasn't the same topic as lowering prior to posting, so maybe it's not connected and is reliant on lowering the centre of gravity and stiffer springs/dampers to acieve less roll from a lowered car.

Yes, I was referring to the comments in post #6 of this thread.
 
mmm, kind of technical guys, i like the idea of whip the old ones off put these babys on and youre sorted!!:rolleyes: :D
 
If you now imagine a hammer hitting the passenger side front hub, knocking the front of the car towards the driving side.

I have seen a demonstration of this once but instead of ice and a hammer the surface was a carpark tarmac and the hammer was a VW variant.;) :rolleyes: :eek:
 
Sometimes it feels like i only have to open my mouth and i am bombarded with questions. I love to help and be part of the solution but i don't like saturation.

No problem.. You want to come here to relax, not work...


Sure..;)
 
Would I be correct in saying that all of the above is great for the racetrack but minimum benefits for normal road use ?

Only asking.
 
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>>minimum benefits for normal road use ?

Practically, for road use you can't change it by much anyway - it's largely set at concept design time, when the relative positions of the large masses and axles are defined.

If you want to improve DI (which itself assumes that you have a means of finding what the DI actually is for your car - not trivial!), then you would need to move heavy items like the battery to the most advantageous position, [either closer to the c of g, or further away depending upon the original DI] and remove weight from other areas.

So, yes, it is something that you would tend to be able to do more work on if you are racing, and can happily remove things like seats, body panels, and other creature comforts.
 
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I don't want to remove anything, I'll stay in the comfort zone !
 

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