3 bids for JAGUAR/ROVER

[DieselE]

However, where is the Jaguar 4x4?

X Type 2.5 and 3.0

 

[grober]

Probably not would be my guess, based purely on perception and the kudos factor. As I said, I work with a relatively young crew with plenty of disposable who are very switched on to ''cachet'' and they seem to have no allegience to what I would call motoring heritage and good old British manufacturing traditions.

They watch stuff like Top Gear, JC says Ferrari or Porsche are the way to go and bingo, they associate those brands with instant cachet. Fair enough I guess with those two brands but something similar happened with the Hyundai Getz, confused I believe. The same people here, (where I work), say they would not touch a W203 saloon because someone said it was put together in Africa, (maybe it is?) crazy I know but thats how fickle some folks are.

Portzy.

Many of the W203 RHD Saloons were made in South Africa. I think the RHD W203? estates were German built--- so if you want to be sure of a German built RHD C class---buy an estate. Don't know where the new RHD w204 saloon for the UK comes from? http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article.php?a_id=107352

I think DC_insider said they would be manufactured in Germany?

 

[TonyVianoAmbiente]

The Chrylser 300C diesel is on a W210 floorpan with the latest V6 320CDI engine and MB five speed transmission. Dyed in the wool "Good Ole Boys" might object to the German components.

I think the American market values the Daimler input to the 300C. It is a fine car. It appears to be all-American but it has Mercedes DNA and dynamics and appears pretty reliable. It is also competitively priced in the UK.

 

[DieselE]

I think the American market values the Daimler input to the 300C. It is a fine car. It appears to be all-American but it has Mercedes DNA and dynamics and appears pretty reliable. It is also competitively priced in the UK.

Chrysler also makes the Dodge Charger (US only) which looks much like a badge engineerd 300C. I wonder if that shares the Daimler components.

 

[TonyVianoAmbiente]

I agree Ford almost certainly saved Jaguar from an untimely death, but consider Jaguar's position in the marketplace. In my opinion it should be competing against Audi, BMW, our very own Mercedes-Benzes and in some cases Porsches and Maseratis.

Ford didn't help Jaguar with their typical "Dearborn" build-it-down-to-a-price approach.

Did they really think we would be fooled by an S-Type that had the floorpan, suspension and body structure of a mid-range Lincoln? Did they really think that the X-Type would sell as an upmarket car when it had the floorpan, suspension and body structure of a Mondeo?

How does using mass-produced Peugeot-made engines and cheap Ford or Lincoln suspension fit with the Jaguar heritage of advanced multi-valve (and multi-cylinder) engines and sublime race-developed independent rear suspension with wishbones and inboard discs?

The truth is that Ford cheapened the Jaguar brand by treating it merely as a badge to be applied to some mediocre, mass produced junk. The Jaguar X-Type is a thinly veneered Mondeo, and how it shows. The S-Type is a thinly veneered version of Lincoln that sells at half the price of the S-Type.

The low sales of the X-Type and S-Type fully reflect their humble underpinnings and disappointing dynamics.

The XJ and XK models do still have Jaguar DNA but I cannot reconcile putting a V8 engine in a Jaguar. A Jaguar should have an inline six (my favourite) or a lightweight but powerful V12. Otherwise, I'm sorry, but it is just a pretend Jaguar.

Sir William Lyons must be spinning in his grave.

The other atrocity that Ford has committed is to make Jaguar and Land Rover indivisible. There's no shared heritage between these two disparate brands. But low sales of the X-Type made Ford decide to build Land Rover Freelanders in the Jaguar (former Ford) factory at Halewood, so apparently the two companies now cannot be split.

I think that creates an image problem, because the brands have nothing in common other than ownership (Ford) and co-production at Halewood.

I dread to think what will happen to Jaguar/Land Rover next. Production in India or China is a possibility, but that would completely negate the value of these British brands when their Britishness is just about all they have left that is worth anything.

The X-Type is still a Mondeo and the new S-Type replacement still shares a platform with Lincoln. Many engines come from Peugeot. How will a new Indian or Chinese owner unpick all that?

 

[crockers]

When Dad used to work for Ford at Dunton's engineering plant he would come across many colleagues with the same opinion.

It's a shame that we Brits don't follow the French with their loyalty towards their own countries manufacturers. However, I can understand why we don’t, or rather, why we didn’t buy British.

Buy British....... What exactly is buying British? Honda, Toyota, Nissan - or Vauxhall, Jaguar, Land Rover -- actually all foreign owned but assembled here...

So bottom line is no longer can we say we are buying a "british" "german" "swedish" car etc but a car assembled in ........................ so does the nationality of the parent company really matter?

I always swore I would never buy a japanese car ....(silly reasons that I wont go into here)....but that has changed and we are on our second Honda (built up the road)...I then said I would only buy cars "assembled" in the UK....only to find out that my W203 was assembled in South Africa.

I think we have to be careful - we all want our goods to be affordable - but the danger is at what price long term. Labour costs in the east are peanuts compared to the west so it is obvious to move to assembles over there. But in 20 years time that may change as these countries grow - inflation will hit them and so wages will have to go up. If labour costs over there + shipping proves too expensive watch them leave. May not be in out lifetimes - but it will happen. Take japan - once labour there (after the war) was cheap - now its too expensive and many japanese companies looked for cheap labour (plus wanting to overcome import restrictions) built plants in the west. Massive Govt grants encouraged them (as are now being offered in eastern europe).

Take Germany - once held up to be the example of working ethics and quality product. Now suffering from the joining of east and west. The Big mistake here was offering parity to the east german mark to the west german one. So suddenly the people in the east were "rich"...they bought their mercs had foreign holidays - then expected the state to look after them as had always been the case. Demanding more wages - better pensions and all of a sudden the german economy is suffering - labour too expensive and therefore the unthinkable - assembling german branded cars abroad.

Sorry for the rant.....

 

[glojo]

The problem with Landrover is who will buy one? The major market for this vehicle has always been the military. Even some American forces use it, but sadly I think its days as a military vehicle are numbered. Selling the odd vehicle to farmer Giles will not keep this company's head above water and the Range Rover is facing competition from every corner, they have huge problems with no easy answers. The market takes no prisoners and if the price plus quality is not right then it will sink. I would have much preferred to see Jaguar really competing in the executive market. Forget the Mondeo model, that was crazy, why on earth try to take sales from your own market, selling a small Jaguar instead of a Mondeo does not increase the overall sales? Madness, why not compete against the E-class, 5 series, S-class and the 7-series? Take sales from the market where you are not competing. Does the larger Volvo compare to these executive vehicles?


Regards
John

 

[crockers]

The problem with Landrover is who will buy one? The major market for this vehicle has always been the military. Even some American forces use it, but sadly I think its days as a military vehicle are numbered. Selling the odd vehicle to farmer Giles will not keep this company's head above water and the Range Rover is facing competition from every corner, they have huge problems with no easy answers. The market takes no prisoners and if the price plus quality is not right then it will sink. I would have much preferred to see Jaguar really competing in the executive market. Forget the Mondeo model, that was crazy, why on earth try to take sales from your own market, selling a small Jaguar instead of a Mondeo does not increase the overall sales? Madness, why not compete against the E-class, 5 series, S-class and the 7-series? Take sales from the market where you are not competing. Does the larger Volvo compare to these executive vehicles?





Regards
John

The X-Type is pitched against 3 Series, C class, A4 not Mondeo that is pitched against the Vectra 406 Laguna C5 etc...

It just failed because it failed to beat any of its class and is too expensive against the second list..It ended up pitched against the S60 & Saab 9-3 - and to add insult to injury - launced a diesel without an auto option...doomed to fail in luxury circles but ok if pitched into the "rep" market

All....IMHO.

 

[TonyVianoAmbiente]

The X-Type is pitched against 3 Series, C class, A4 not Mondeo that is pitched against the Vectra 406 Laguna C5 etc...

It just failed because it failed to beat any of its class and is too expensive against the second list..

That's because it *is* a Mondeo, just with differently-styled outer body panels and a Jaguar badge. A Mondeo-based phoney "Jaguar" will never compete with the 3 Series, C class, A4.

The A4 is actually a very good example of what Jaguar tried to do with the X-Type and failed. The A4's DNA is directly related to the VW Golf and Passat, plus various Seat and Skoda models. Yet the A4 is identifiably an Audi, and despite having much the same choice of engines and gearboxes as the humble Skoda Octavia, it manages to exude both quality and class.

The Jaguar X-Type manages neither.

 

[Mudster]

I bought my (now ex) wife a New Jaguar X-Type, she tried a Lexus, Mercedes C class and an Audi but fell in love with the interior of the Jaguar and the look of the car. I thought it was actually a nice car, awful depreciation though.

The nicest riding car I've ever owned was an XJ6 SIII 4.2 (A reg- I think 1983 ish) It was like wafting along in your front room, just the most pleasant ride and I think today still has the reputation for the best riding motor vehicle ever (Rolls included).

I still have a hankering for a really nice SIII 4.2 Sovereign in Cobalt Blue/Beige leather. It's a most classic lovely looking car.

 

[glojo]

That's because it *is* a Mondeo, just with differently-styled outer body panels and a Jaguar badge. A Mondeo-based phoney "Jaguar" will never compete with the 3 Series, C class, A4.

And that's the problem. I bow to Crocker's post but to the lay person and joe public, it's a Jaguar badged Mondeo. I go along with the Vectra, but I thought the Vectra replaced the Cavalier which competed with the Sierra which was replaced by the...........

John

 

[robert.saunders]

The X-type 2.2TDCi makes a lovely Mondeo

 

[jeremytaylor]

Jaguar was once one of the very few that had the capacity to build a V12. Today they have Peugeot Diesel powered stations to take kids to school. Nothing wrong about Peugeot Diesel engines and taking kids to school, but for a make that won LeMans in the good and the hard old days and produced such cars as the XK120, MK2, e-Type, and XJ's, it's a bit odd to say the least.

Not odd at all. Look at Audi - winners of Le Mans, and manufacturers of estates/small hatches ...

 

[greg123]

On the plus point, those switches worked. I still have a jag with the original lucas switches. One of them works ;-)

It did no good to Jaguar when the first Ford owned versions came on the market with Ford switches in the console

 

[big x]

The problem with Landrover is who will buy one? The major market for this vehicle has always been the military. Even some American forces use it, but sadly I think its days as a military vehicle are numbered. Selling the odd vehicle to farmer Giles will not keep this company's head above water and the Range Rover is facing competition from every corner, they have huge problems with no easy answers. The market takes no prisoners and if the price plus quality is not right then it will sink. I would have much preferred to see Jaguar really competing in the executive market....


Regards
John

In fact the Freelander and Discovery are the big sellers.I haven't read to many road tests where the current models didn't beat the opposition.
Jaguar do try to compete in the executive market

adam

 

[big x]

GM have just posted a mind boggling $39 billion loss

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/nov/08/generalmotors.usnews

It's a shame profitable companies like Ford UK are vulnerable to mismanagement in the American market.

adam

 

[TonyVianoAmbiente]

It's a shame profitable companies like Ford UK are vulnerable to mismanagement in the American market.

True, but it cuts both ways, and Ford has invested heavily in its (sometimes) loss-making European subsidiaries several times since WW2. For example, in the Anglia 105E, Cortina, Zephyr, Zodiac range of the 1960s, and the Escort Mk III, Sierra and Granada range in the early 1980s. Then the biggest investment of all was in the Ka, Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo range of the 1990s.

Prior to each of these heavy investments, Ford of Europe was losing a lot of money. But Dearborn kept faith with Ford of Europe and large sums of money were available for investment. The result is a fine product range.

Of course all this came unstuck with Aston Martin, Jaguar and, to an extent, Land Rover, where large investment from Dearborn did not make the companies profitable.

 

[glojo]

Overnight I have been thinking about big industry and the competition coming from the Far East and others. I have never worked in the private section so please take my points as questions rather than statements.

In the UK and I suppose a good few other countries our private sector employ workers and not only do these folks get paid for the actual work they carry out, they get holiday pay, sickness pay?? and then countless other taxes that I know nothing about i.e. National Insurance for one but no doubt there are countless others. Then there will be overtime rates, maternity pay, pensions etc etc. Does this apply Worldwide, do companies in say China have these same overheads and do they have to comply with the same health and safety regulations which must be very cost consuming to comply with? If one company has to budget for all these requirements and another companies doesn't, then is it little wonder that we are seeing our industry moving to different locations? Is it right to allow free trade or fair trade as to me it might not really be 'fair'.

Just my thoughts that might be way out of kilter.

Regards
John

 

[prprandall51]

Margaret Thatcher was the architect of Britain's complete conversion to a free market economy where everything was driven by cost. Cash is king and other matters, such as tradition and heritage are irrelevant.

It was she, observing that we could bring coal all the way from Chile and land it in Britain at a cheaper price (and thus a lower energy cost) than we could dig it out of the ground from our own back yard, who put the miners out of a job by breaking up their protected industry. She then went on to do the same throughout the public sector.

Some people don't like what she did, but I would argue strongly that Britain is a healthier country as a result.

The flip side is that we have to allow market forces to have their own way in matters such as the sale of our great British institutions. This includes Jaguar and Land Rover.

Clearly, we would probably all like to see them sold to the Germans if a British buyer cannot be found - they always seem like a safe pair of hands with an understanding and sympathy towards engineering and quality. But it seems unlikely that any German brand would find anything of value in Jaguar (and LR isn't available separately). So, perhaps the Indians will get the bundle. If so, I am sure they will inject plenty of cash and will be shrewd enough to keep the cars as British as possible. After all, does anyone worry they are buying a Korean car when they buy a Lotus?

The important point so far completely overlooked on this thread - is that there are no potential French bidders.
Philip

 

[grober]

Bolsheviks!!!

Wonder what the "Iron Lady" thinks of us buying most of our energy ( gas ) from Mr Putin ( KGB retd) and not those nasty British miners with bolshevik tendancies.