Jaguar and Land Rover

[amwebby]

*Pedant alert*: Not quite so: the original A40 had a bottom-hinged bootlid, and the rear screen stayed in place. The later countryman version had a split top- and bottom-hinged arrangement. So not really a hatchback. The Italian Innocenti version did however have a hatchback. The first ever real hatchback was the 1954 Citroen Commerciale, basically a Light Fifteen with a hatch.
I fear you are correct in your assessment of the future of Jaguar though.

Not quite. The Aston Martin DB2/4, introduced at the 1953 London Motor Show, featured the very first hatchback.

 

[imadoofus]

Not quite. The Aston Martin DB2/4, introduced at the 1953 London Motor Show, featured the very first hatchback.

Except that Dave's dates were a little out. The Citroen Traction Commerciale was actually launched in about 1940, IIRC

 

[verytalldave]

To go slightly off-topic. What actually is accepted difference between a hatchback and an estate car?
To be honest I wouldnt call either the Aston or the Citroen hatchbacks.
Same as I wouldnt call the Jaguar E type 2+2 or the Scimitar GTE hatchbacks either. But dont ask me to quantify why. Its just a feeling.

 

[Dave Lewis]

Not quite. The Aston Martin DB2/4, introduced at the 1953 London Motor Show, featured the very first hatchback.

Hmmm, it may have a hatch on the back, but an Aston isn't really a hatchback, it's a GT, if we're being really pedantic

 

[imadoofus]

To go slightly off-topic. What actually is accepted difference between a hatchback and an estate car?
To be honest I wouldnt call either the Aston or the Citroen hatchbacks.
Same as I wouldnt call the Jaguar E type 2+2 or the Scimitar GTE hatchbacks either. But dont ask me to quantify why. Its just a feeling.

Well I suppose, strictly, a hatchback should have a hatch in the back, like an XK-E or a Honda Z600, or that Aston Martin. Anything with a door in the back can't really be a hatchback, can it?

An estate is so named because it was the car used on the estate of wealthy landowners. It was originally called a shooting-brake; brake after a horse-drawn carriage in which the rear bench seats faced one-another, and shooting, because that's what they were used for (on the estate).

So on that basis, neither estate cars nor hatchbacks are properly named.

Having said all which, a hatchback is commonly understood to be much like an estate, but with a smaller load area and, typically, a steeply raked rear window. If you recall Audi's first 'estates' were called "Avant" because they were not traditional estates, but were intended to be viewed as more than mere hatchbacks. In fact, didn't Mercedes do something similar with the C-class estate?

The Scimitar GTE was never a hatchback. It was a 'Grand Touring Estate' (although it was originally conceived for Triplex as a 'Glass Topped Sports'). And the E-type's 'hatch' was side-hinged, much more like a proper door.

In many ways, the Citroen really was a hatchback, in that is had a big tailgate, but the load area was too small to be an 'estate'.

 

[amwebby]

Does the Aston qualify as a GT? My definition is a coupe that can carry 4 adults and their luggage in comfort on a long journey. The 2/4 cannot do this as, to accommodate the luggage, you lose the ability to seat 4. As for long distances in comfort, this is not the Aston's forte, even for two passengers.

 

[imadoofus]

My definition is a coupe that can carry 4 adults and their luggage in comfort on a long journey.

There have been very few coupes that can carry 4 adults in comfort on a long journey, luggage or not

2 or 2+2 seats is more accepted.

 

[amwebby]

2 + 2 I can see. 2 seats and it's a sportscar, not a GT.

My 1979 Aston V8 and my 2001 W215 can both carry four adults and their luggage in comfort on long journeys...

 

[imadoofus]

OK, but I would call the CL a two-door saloon ( ).

I do concede on the OI Aston Martins, but I did say 'very few', not none

Would you call the original Maserati Ghibli a GT or a sportscar?

 

[verytalldave]

So I guess the Ford Cortina wasnt really a GT then?

 

[Venomous]

If memory serves, didn't Jaguar run a campaign in the States promoting the X-Type to the Professional Male Gay community?

Perhaps there's some messages in the design of the XF that we may be missing...

 

[verytalldave]

If memory serves, didn't Jaguar run a campaign in the States promoting the X-Type to the Professional Male Gay community?

Perhaps there's some messages in the design of the XF that we may be missing...

Dodgy ground here..................

 

[amwebby]

OK, but I would call the CL a two-door saloon ( ).

I do concede on the OI Aston Martins, but I did say 'very few', not none

Would you call the original Maserati Ghibli a GT or a sportscar?

An interesting blurring of the line with two door saloon. You are aware that Aston Martin called the V8 a saloon?

The Aston DB2/4 is too small to be a GT. The Maserati Ghibli is a GT, just (and yes, I know it has two seats but its too big to be a sports car).

 

[imadoofus]

You are aware that Aston Martin called the V8 a saloon?

Yes I am, and I was going to mention it, but decided that would blur things yet further.

An interesting blurring of the line with two door saloon

Only so I could prove my own point

 

[imadoofus]

So I guess the Ford Cortina wasnt really a GT then?

What have you obliterated from that photo Dave? were you naked sunbathing again?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

If you recall Audi's first 'estates' were called "Avant" because they were not traditional estates, but were intended to be viewed as more than mere hatchbacks. In fact, didn't Mercedes do something similar with the C-class estate?

Ahh, an estate with a small luggage capacity, which is designed to look nice rather than carry wardrobes. I believe these are now commonly referred to these days as a lifestyle estates.

 

[imadoofus]

I believe these are now commonly referred to these days as a lifestyle estates.

Which raises a whole new discussion about what the heck that means, and what goes into marketing people's tea...

 

[verytalldave]

What have you obliterated from that photo Dave? were you naked sunbathing again?

What do mean AGAIN?

I can see what and where you mean. You have a sharp pair of peepers there.

Its actually exactly as lifted off a website. No paintbox mods by me. Honest.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

So you are not going to like the £60K+ V8 supercharged XF, I admit it does not look like a £60K car. Whats this rebodied design all about the XF looks nothing like any other Jag old or new.

The reference to re-bodied design comes from the XF being based upon the S-types platform. The original plan was an all-new alumninium approach a la XJ but it would take too long to come to fruition, and Jaguar need a cash cow sooner to survive.

Incidentally I believe the S-type platform was actually half-inched from under a Lincoln , and which probably explains why it was only by time the facelift S-type came along that comments about the chassis were more positive.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Just checked Wikipedia, to check which Lincoln was the donor for the S-type.

WARNING: Please squint as you look at the image to minimise damage to your eyes and perception of Jaguars.

So are you squinting?

No? You really ought to - it's like how you shouldn't look directly at the sun.

OK, that's better, now click away:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_LS