• The Forums are now open to new registrations, adverts are also being de-tuned.

4matic models in the UK poll

How many potential purchasers are there out there for the new ETS 4Matic four wheel

  • would definitely purchase if available

    Votes: 12 24.5%
  • would possibly be interested depending on price

    Votes: 17 34.7%
  • mildly interested in purchase but need to be convinced of advantages

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • would not be interested

    Votes: 16 32.7%

  • Total voters
    49
  • Poll closed .
Nokian WR's on the REAR

glojo said:
Driving on studded snow tyres. If studded tyres are installed on the front of any vehicle, they must also be installed on the rear.
The beginning of movement and acceleration of any vehicle in snow, ice and other adverse cold weather conditions is highly dependent on the traction qualities of the tyres on the driving axle. The controlled handling and braking of a vehicle after it is in motion in adverse weather conditions, however, is highly dependent on the traction of the rear tyres. Consequently, the rear tyres of any vehicle must have equal or higher traction capabilities than the front tyres for safe vehicle operation.
Because of the higher traction qualities of studded snow tyres under most winter weather conditions, installation of only two studded snow tyres on the front of any vehicle (especially front wheel drive vehicles) without two studded snow tyres on the rear can cause adverse (unsafe) handling characteristics.

NICK in reply to your point about winter tyres on the rear see the quote above. I have highlighted the relevant parts in bold. Although it refers to studded tyres it also applies to snow tyres in winter conditions.
I hope John doesn't mind me quoting part of his post, but it sums up what I have found with Nokian WR's( non studded all season) on the rear axle. I appreciate that a true snow tyre like a Nokia Hakkka 4 or VREDESTEIN icetrac with a very open tread will be very " squirmy" on dry tarmac leading to "interesting" handling. :eek: However the Nokian WR and VREDESTEIN wintrac are sort of "cross over" snow tyres which rely more on multiple siping and a low temperature silica rubber mix rather than very aggressive tread patterns. :) They have slightly wider grooves than a summer tyre but not so much to allow lateral movement of the tread blocks under cornering forces. Compare them with the grip of a close patterned summer tyre in the warm and dry and they lose out of course but the difference is not as much as you would think. :) Having tyres on the rear which grip slightly better than the front in snow and ice tends to change what was an "oversteering" mercedes back to the more stable "understeering" car it normally is. The fact is that you can run these cross over tyres all year round if you want and I have done this in the past. With a little circumspection on tight wet roundabouts I have found no handling problems in the summer!! :D Just what I have found but others may disagree. ;)
 
Last edited:
Mercedes E class 4matic production to move.

A recent press release from Daimler Chrysler announced that E class 4 matic production is to move from the Magna Steyr plant in Austria back to Germany.
Owned by the CANADIAN based Magna International, the former Steyr-Daimler-Puch Plant assembled the following models:-
BMW X3
Chrysler Voyager
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Mercedes E class 4matic
Mercedes G class
Mercedes ML ?? Previous model
Saab 9-3 cabriolet

Maybe in 2007 they will make some RHD Models ? :D :D
but no mention of the C class 4matics. Wonder where they are made? :confused:

QUOTE:-

November 11, 2005 Mercedes-Benz G-Class production continued.

As recently announced by DaimlerChrysler, the Mercedes-Benz Car Group will continue production of their Mercedes-Benz G-Class beyond 2006 at Magna Steyr in Graz, Austria.
"The decision to continue the production of the G-Class is not only of great economic relevance, but is of historical significance", stated Magna Steyr CEO Manfred Remmel. "This classic off-roader is inseparably connected with the identity of our plant in Graz and its growth to become the largest contract assembler of automobiles worldwide". The Mercedes-Benz G-Class has been produced in Graz since 1979. Since then, more than 185,000 vehicles manufactured. During the past 26 years, the G-Class has been permanently kept at a state-of-the-art level and, owing to its unique appearance and legendary off-road quality, has gained cult status.
Mr. Remmel also stated "The G-Class has been the foundation of our long-term and successful cooperation with DaimlerChrysler. We are very pleased that our cooperation is continued with this vehicle."
DaimlerChrysler also announced that it will manufacture the Mercedes-Benz E-Class 4MATIC together with all other E-Class models in their own plant in Sindelfingen from 2007. The Mercedes-Benz E-Class 4MATIC has been manufactured in Graz since 1996. Two other Magna Steyr plants will continue to supply 4matic components for the 4 wheel drive system. Magna Steyr’s long-term relationship with DaimlerChrysler continues with two new production orders: the new Chrysler 300C launched this past June and production of the new Jeep Commander launching in Graz at the beginning of 2006.
 
Last edited:
Dieselman, from what you say it's taken M-B until 2005 to get the W211 sorted. The M-B hierarchy has until now denied all problems short of safety recalls and so, sadly, do many of the dealers. On the SBC issue, this hype is taken from M-B's own UK web-site:

The SL-Class is the first car in the world to be fitted with Sensotronic Brake Control™ (SBC™). It comes as standard on every SL-Class....Sensors "feel" the driver´s foot on the pedal and transmit messages to the SBC™ computer, making for a truly innovative system that works with you for smoother and more responsive braking

They don't say it's a piece of unsorted technology that should never have been foisted on the unsuspecting public and has belatedly been removed from every other vehicle, bar the SL!

But if you want to know what's real and what's not, ask the people who's job it is to work on the final product (or an honest service manager!). If you ask the manufacturer all you get is the company line. Like politician's, that's what they're paid to say. Owners, on the other hand, sometimes suffer from what the marketeers call 'cognitive dissonance resolution' - or a lack of critical distance in forming judgements on the product they have bought!

I'll wait to see how the W211 with 4matic pans out with my service centre before investing money in one! That is, if they adopt it for the AMG version. :)
 
Birdman said:
They don't say it's a piece of unsorted technology that should never have been foisted on the unsuspecting public and has belatedly been removed from every other vehicle, bar the SL!

Hi Birdman,

In what way is SBC unsorted? It seems to work well enough to me on my car and I haven't seen any specific problems with the system reported on this website or in the press generally.

From a technical point of view, what SBC achieves is amazing - mostly because what it does to improve stability of the vehilce goes entirely unnoticed by the driver. Perhaps some of those who are benefiting from SBC only see the downside (the recall, the burps in the morning from the pump) without stopping to consider how much of a contribution it is making to their active safety?

It seems to me that SBC is the next logical development after ABS and then ESP. That MB have withdrawn it is perhaps as much an idication of the cost and complexity, rather than the technology. Furthermore, some of the SBC concepts are being carried over to other vehicles, anyway. Tragically, the single most important - individual wheel braking - will not. I am sure that SBC will return it time, though, even if it does so under another name.

I do not think MB invested all that time and money in SBC as a marketing gimmick. Maketing departments are wise enough to spend money on stuff the driver can see, not on stuff that works away in the background hiden from view (with only a burping pump to let the owner know it's there!). SBC seems to me to be the work of the engineers trying to improve vehicle safety. That's one of the reasons I bought MB.

Now I am starting to sound like an MB evangelist, but I can't see why the company is getting so much flack for a system that adds so much to vehicle safety. SBC seems better sorted to me in this first generation form than the first generation ABS systems, which were positively frightening in slippy conditions.

Philip
 
prprandall51 said:
Hi Birdman,

In what way is SBC unsorted? It seems to work well enough to me on my car and I haven't seen any specific problems with the system reported on this website or in the press generally.
Hi Philip,
Well said and extremely well put. Unfortunately it is those that do not have it, that criticise it with gossip and rumour.

I have asked this gentleman several times why is the system retained on the flagship SLR model, he allegedly has the contacts to answer this simple question?? If the system was flawed then there is no way it would be put onto such a high performance vehicle.

I remember the days of cable brakes and some lunatic went across to a hydraulic system??? How dangerous is that?? Imagine if a pipe burst? Those same critics are now no doubt making the same noises over SBC?

Did Boeing criticise the European Airbus for having fly by wire technology? Did Boeing not say they would never part from having direct cables to their control systems? Has Boeing now gone down the fly by wire technology route?

Progress is what makes us what we are, SBC is a brilliant but expensive system.

John
 
SBC a technology step too far ahead of its time?

I am glad that my 4 matic survey has stimulated discussion on winter motoring an MB driving technology in general. :) :)
This brief article on SBC fromWard's Auto World, Sep 1, 2005 sums up the relevant points very well I think. The bold sections highlighted are the crucial to the arguement IMHO. There is also good explanation of some of the lesser known features of SBC at Wolfgangs page http://www.whnet.com/4x4/sbc.html

QUOTE:-

Marina Naumann is driving her Mercedes-Benz E-Class down steeply twisting Camps Bay Drive, just south of Cape Town, South Africa.

Suddenly an alarm sounds and the instrument panel flashes: “Long Stop Brake Failure-Stop Car.” Naumann would do that — if she could. The brake pedal has gone soft as if there is no connection to anything.

The E-Class's high-tech electro-hydraulic Sensotronic Brake Control (SBC) braking system switches to backup mode, but braking power is minimal. Shaken, Naumann steers the Mercedes to a stop on the only slice of near-flat gradient in sight.

Naumann is not alone in having electrical problems with her E-Class. In late March, Mercedes issued a global recall of all 1.3 million cars equipped with the Robert Bosch GmbH-built SBC system.

The system, an early attempt at “by wire” control of brakes that eliminates the physical connection between the brake pedal and the brakes themselves, first was introduced on the current-generation 320 SL and later fitted to the E-Class (W210 series) and CLS.

Mercedes says in its recall that SBC may shift prematurely to the hydraulic backup function due to deterioration of the wiring harness or premature failure of the hydraulic pump.

As a consequence, the driver has braking power sufficient to stop the vehicle, although greater brake pedal pressure is required, and the brake pedal travel will be longer.

Although the SBC brakes can be fixed, the sting of worldwide publicity surrounding the recall has given Mercedes' once-impregnable quality reputation another beating.

The fall from grace can be traced back to the early 1990s decision to retreat from the reality of its slogan, “Engineered like no other car,” combined with more recent moves to incorporate innovative electronic features.

The result is a quality nightmare that has deeply tarnished the Mercedes brand and sent the marque plunging in customer-satisfaction ratings.

Mercedes once was famous for its over-engineered vehicles. But a new, “leaner” engineering philosophy was introduced by then Mercedes chief Juergen Hubbert and DaimlerChrysler Corp. CEO Dieter Zetsche, who at the time was head of Mercedes research and development.

Their goal was to help Mercedes cut cost while meeting the challenge of competition — particularly from the supremely efficient Japanese.

The new system cut as much as two years from the previously unhurried 7-year development process for any all-new Mercedes model. At the same time, the auto maker added a raft of niche models and greatly expanded the range at both ends.

What followed was a shift from an engineering-dominated product-development process and culture to a marketing-driven environment that resulted in the disappointing W210 E-Class, controversial A-Class and the quality-challenged, U.S.-built, M-Class SUV.

The decision to adopt innovative electronic features for the new SL and E-Class now is viewed as overkill. Coming so soon after the auto maker's seminal mid-1990s engineering shift to develop new models according to a pre-determined budget, the mandate only amplified Mercedes' increasingly stretched engineering resources.

For decades, the E-Class has been the nucleus from which Mercedes' entire model range radiates and, because of the numbers — about 300,000 sold annually — the model has been the company's greatest profit generator.

But hurt by the critical quality-degradation publicity, especially in Europe, sales of the E-Class have plunged this year, taking Mercedes into the red. Production for the first three months was down 32% to 56,615 units.

Mercedes' 100,000-mile (161,000-km) diesel-power world record attempt earlier this year wasn't just about confirming the ability of its new V-6 turbodiesel, or selling diesel technology to the U.S.

On a far wider front, the record-setting run, involving three E320 CDIs selected at random off the assembly line, was intended to reinforce to the world the E-Class' superior overall quality and reliability.

The idea of using a record run to shore up a car's or brand's reputation isn't new. Ford Motor Co. Australia Ltd. went the same route for its XP Falcon in 1965.

Michael Kramer, head of development for the C/E-Class, tired of hearing his cars disparaged, devised the plan last September. Mercedes now believes the record run was a success on all three levels.

“We want to prove the electronics of our cars are of the same quality as the mechanical parts,” says Thomas Weber, Mercedes board member responsible for Research & Technology and Development, on hand to witness the run at the DC test track in Texas.

“The (SBC) recall sent a message to the customers that they can trust us. If we have a problem, they know we will fix it.”

Weber admits Mercedes' desire to be first meant implementing an excess of electronic features without fully understanding the potential problems.

“We realize now that many of the ideas we adopted came from consumer electronics,” he says. “That was a mistake. We now know they were not all suitable for cars.”

Mercedes did test the components, he says, although suppliers conducted some of the testing. But the auto maker now realizes components cannot be tested themselves.

You need to test the whole car to see how they are integrated together in one environment,” Weber says. “That was our biggest lesson.

He also says Mercedes needs to rethink its timeline in order to determine which electronic innovations are important to customers and decide how fast the systems can be adopted.

“We don't need to be as fast as possible; that's not our idea,” he says.

As for the brake problem that afflicted Naumann's E270, Weber says it was caused by vibration that allowed the wiring harness to work loose, triggering a shutdown reaction from the engine's electronic control unit.

The ECU then slipped into a special failure mode that deactivated the SBC system. The recall fixes the harness more securely, and the modification now is being applied to production cars, he says.

Tellingly, however, this year's upcoming all-new S-Class, originally engineered with the SBC system, will use conventional hydraulic actuation instead.

How many flawed cars has Mercedes replaced? Weber is not specific. “Only a few,” he says.

Even so, Mercedes customers demand nothing less than the luxury maker's historic reputation for perfection — the company's bottom line depends on it.
 
Hi Grober, thanks for posting the link explaining SBC. I think it underlines the benefits of the system. For the recall, they happen all the time in the car industry to ALL makes of cars for all sorts of reasons. MB did well to bite the bullet and issue the recall before any vehicles were affected - it was proactive, not reactive.

Although the woman in South Africa clearly had a hairy moment, she did stop safely and SBC does not leave you without brakes, I was under the impression that it leaves you with fully assisted front brakes, which is a major stopping resource? Can someone confirm? It would be physically impossible to stop an E Class without some form of brake assistance, I would think.

As to pump failure, it is now well known (I believe) that this has only occurred on exceptionally high mileage vehicles (Berlin taxis) and no-one had died - or even been injured - as far as I am aware because of this fault.

Each to their own, I suppose. But I am glad that I got a car with SBC and I am glad that MB is pushing forward with safety technologies. I believe it is a role they have pursued for about 100 years, it would be a shame if they stopped now simply because of a few press articles.

For proof of the storm-in-a-teacup-ness of the SBC story, I refer to the article above. I am assuming that the journalist who wrote about the South African woman couldn't dig up anything more exciting anywhere else in the Wrold or he would have printed that instead. Woman drives down hill, brakes play up a bit, woman stops safely. It's a bit of a mini adventure!

Philip
 
grober said:
Mercedes' 100,000-mile (161,000-km) diesel-power world record attempt earlier this year wasn't just about confirming the ability of its new V-6 turbodiesel, or selling diesel technology to the U.S.

On a far wider front, the record-setting run, involving three E320 CDIs selected at random off the assembly line, was intended to reinforce to the world the E-Class' superior overall quality and reliability.

If you want to read real scare stories on the SBC system then go no further than the US forums. US vehicles have a very basic stripped down version of SBC that does not have any of the bells and whistles that we have, yet they criticise the 'soft' feel, they criticise the 'hard, vicious' response. they criticise the continual failure of the system???

Never let the truth spoil a good story, but the World record that was acheived in the US was done by importing European fuel, likewise the recent US test of the M-class vs the Lexus hybrid. This comparison was done in the US with back-up vehicles carrying European fuel for the Mercedes-Benz? Never let the truth spoil a good story. :)

My complaint about the system is more to do with the earlier wearing of the disc's but is might have more to do with the construction of the pads\discs and we might still see this problem on new vehicles without SBC??

I prattle on defending Mercedes-Benz on this issue simply because I feel they are being treated unfairly. The E-class is a new generation of vehicle that can be upgraded by computer. In the old days you bought a car in say 2003 and that was it. A 2004 car had upgrades and you would have to buy that vehicle to benefit from the technological advances. With my E-class the vehicle goes into the dealership and simply gets upgraded to the latest specification??

In years to come the SBC on the E-class might well become a problem especially if it is not re-introduced. Journalists will print any piece of rumour\gossip they can on SBC. Don't forget Jeremy Clarkson thrashing the CLS and over heating the brakes!! How easy that could be to blame the technology and not his driving. Lorries going downhill in to higher gear.... and crashing into blocks of flats or house (This happened here at Teignmouth killing both driver and house occupants) Let's blame the brakes.

Is there a single 211 owner that does NOT like the system and if so why?

I know of circumstances where the cable broke on an old car with cable braking, likewise no doubt pipes burst on normal systems. This is a sad fact of life and it is wrong to condemn something simply because of isolated failures??? These last remarks are to stimulate debate.

John
 
SBC from the sidelines

I can't really comment on SBC personally since my old bus doesnt have it. :confused: I have experienced the benefits of ABS on several heartstopping occasions however, and I am all in favour of technology which makes driving a safer experience. :D Hence my interest in 4MATIC and the reference to the latest EURO NCAP recommendation in a previous post. I was merely trying to emphasise certain factors which may have lead to Mercedes withdrawing what is by any standards an impressive bit of technology. As to whether the complaints about the system are justified or not Mercedes seemed to be damned if they do and damned if they dont. I think also that "BRAKES" are a particularly sensitive area for owners ( existing and potential) and any doubts, real or imagined in their efficacy may adversely effect sales. :crazy:
 
And it's been a very informative discussion Graeme - and entertaining too. What more could anyone ask?
 
4 matic prototype

Heres a picture of an early 4 matic prototype. They were still working on the suspension and ground clearance at this time. :D :D

OK OK I'm obsessed I know. :o :o
 
Last edited:
4matic video MB USA

Here is a better video presentation of the 4matic system on the MB USA site. :)
Broadband advised! http://www.mbusa.com/brand/models/tech_demos/tech_demo_pop.jsp?source=C350W&accCode=3006

And especially for Nick (Bolide) here is a cutaway of the nearside front suspension unit of the old 4matic system. ;) That stretched spring arrangement gave me nightmares until I remembered a coil spring is only a torsion bar squeezed into less space. Then it made sense of sorts! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: thank goodness the new system uses a spring mounted above the hub/driveshaft unit and is a much better engineered approach.
 

Attachments

  • w1244matic.jpg
    w1244matic.jpg
    46.2 KB · Views: 87
Last edited:
Just found this very short video clip of someone desperately trying to spin their 4MaticOver revving 4Matic

Regards,
John
 
Waking up the neighbourhood!

Wonder what time of night that was? I bet the neighbours were pleased! Found yet another visual aid explaining 4matic. This is from the E class interactive owners manual. Its interesting to compare the somewhat formal European and geewiz North American (see a couple of posts back for the link) ways of explaining the same thing. :) :)
http://www3.mercedes-benz.com/e/cars/e-class/betriebsanleitung/erleben/4matic.html#
 
Last edited:
The future of four wheel drive combined with hybrid technology??
Mitsubishi's innovative in-wheel motor


Mitsubishi will demonstrate its Mitsubishi In-wheel motor Electric Vehicle (MIEV) technology at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Mitsubishi is using a Colt electric vehicle for testing the MIEV system, a technology that puts the electric motors within the wheel. This system offers more direct power delivery and also can be used for regenerative braking although unsprung weight would probably be high. Mitsubishi says it's developing a 50-kilowatt version for a high-performance all-wheel-drive car. The four motors would yield a total 200 kilowatts, and high levels of torque. Maybe the future for all vehicles not just 4 wheel drive? When we are all running on fuel cells etc :confused: :confused:
 
Last edited:
prprandall51 said:
Hi Grober, thanks for posting the link explaining SBC. I think it underlines the benefits of the system. For the recall, they happen all the time in the car industry to ALL makes of cars for all sorts of reasons. MB did well to bite the bullet and issue the recall before any vehicles were affected - it was proactive, not reactive.

Although the woman in South Africa clearly had a hairy moment, she did stop safely and SBC does not leave you without brakes, I was under the impression that it leaves you with fully assisted front brakes, which is a major stopping resource? Can someone confirm? It would be physically impossible to stop an E Class without some form of brake assistance, I would think.

As to pump failure, it is now well known (I believe) that this has only occurred on exceptionally high mileage vehicles (Berlin taxis) and no-one had died - or even been injured - as far as I am aware because of this fault.

Each to their own, I suppose. But I am glad that I got a car with SBC and I am glad that MB is pushing forward with safety technologies. I believe it is a role they have pursued for about 100 years, it would be a shame if they stopped now simply because of a few press articles.

For proof of the storm-in-a-teacup-ness of the SBC story, I refer to the article above. I am assuming that the journalist who wrote about the South African woman couldn't dig up anything more exciting anywhere else in the Wrold or he would have printed that instead. Woman drives down hill, brakes play up a bit, woman stops safely. It's a bit of a mini adventure!

Philip

SBC pump failure and the Berlin taxis are two different issues. The taxis were suffering due to reaching the maximum number of brake applications allowed by the system, hence it shut down, whereas pump failures just happen.
Remember none of these cars are older than three years in the UK. Surely brake failure before the first MOT test is not acceptable.

When the SBC system shuts down there is no assistance as there is no servo to provide any.
In a heavy vehicle very high pedal pressures are required to stop the car in a reasonable distance.
 
W211 quality

I am only mentioning this due to an ongoing query being brought up in another thread.

As has previously been mentioned in this thread I personally wouldn't chose to buy a W211 built before 2005 due to issues.
The single largest one of these is that in late 2004 the assembly lines were stopped whilst quality was improved, and in particular the steel for the bodies of the cars was then galvanised to stop the corrosion problem that MB have suffered with since mid 1990s.

This problem affects all models of MB produced between the dates above, some more than others, and we have members W211 having had corrosion repairs.
I do not feel that corrosion is acceptable on a prestige car when ALL the more lowly manufacturers appear to have the well sorted.
 
grober said:

Mitsubishi will demonstrate its Mitsubishi In-wheel motor Electric Vehicle (MIEV) technology at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Mitsubishi is using a Colt electric vehicle for testing the MIEV system, a technology that puts the electric motors within the wheel. This system offers more direct power delivery and also can be used for regenerative braking although unsprung weight would probably be high. Mitsubishi says it's developing a 50-kilowatt version for a high-performance all-wheel-drive car. The four motors would yield a total 200 kilowatts, and high levels of torque. Maybe the future for all vehicles not just 4 wheel drive? When we are all running on fuel cells etc :confused: :confused:


In reality 200Kw electric motors will give exceptional performance. As a comparison a petrol engine needs to have three times the power to give similar performance to an electric motor, as a result of the torque the motor produces, which incidentally is equal throughout the rev range.
 
Springs & things

grober said:
Here is a better video presentation of the 4matic system on the MB USA site. :)
Broadband advised! http://www.mbusa.com/brand/models/tech_demos/tech_demo_pop.jsp?source=C350W&accCode=3006

And especially for Nick (Bolide) here is a cutaway of the nearside front suspension unit of the old 4matic system. ;) That stretched spring arrangement gave me nightmares until I remembered a coil spring is only a torsion bar squeezed into less space. Then it made sense of sorts! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: thank goodness the new system uses a spring mounted above the hub/driveshaft unit and is a much better engineered approach.

I just love that spring! Only a German engineer would bring that to production!

A Brit would think of it, suck on his pipe, laugh knowingly and consign the idea to the scrap bin. A German engineer would issue a technical drawing and a specification for the spring and the spring would duly be forged, tested, found to be within spec, installed and give 20 years service

Personally I think it is beautifully engineered. Even as the suspension compresses the drive shaft passes through the same part of the spring - because the driveshaft is parallel to the bottom wishbone - and only the pitch of the spring changes. Calculate the pitch required at maximum compression, calculate tolerances, draw the spring and send it to the manufacturers

That is why the W124 is probably the best car Mercedes ever built - they thought it all through and didn't skimp on engineering resources. I, for one, would love to have been in a development car as it was thrashed round the Nurburgring. Nowadays they probably do it on a simulator! Rudolf Uhlenhaut would not approve!


Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom