4matic models in the UK poll

[grober]

Still-"dazed and confused"

I've seen reports suggesting that the forthcoming GLK (smaller X3 size SUV, based on the new C-Class) will use 4Matic. I wonder if it will be available in RHD?

Its quite probable since they already have the ML 4X4 here in RHD. My question continues to be why they don't make RHD 4matic saloons/estates available in addition to 4x4 vehicles. better handling-rear visibility,more economical- comfortable, lower public profile etc etc.

 

[Rory]

Its quite probable since they already have the ML 4X4 here in RHD. My question continues to be why they don't make RHD 4matic saloons/estates available in addition to 4x4 vehicles. better handling-rear visibility,more economical- comfortable, lower public profile etc etc.

I thought it was simply because the 4Matic transmission won't fit into a RHD car - the steering etc gets in the way.

*If* the above is true, then I suppose the issue for MB is the business case for making a RHD compatible version of the transmission. Presumeably they don't think it's worth it.

Is the ML the same system as 4Matic? My point about the GLK is that apparently that wil use 4Matic, but even so, maybe the extra height allows it's installation in RHD. Or maybe GLK won't be offered in RHD. Or maybe MB will take the plunge and do a RHD 4Matic transmission and we will get it in saloons! Who knows?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Is the ML the same system as 4Matic?

I believe the ML is badged "4Matic" in the US.

 

[wallingd]

Vehicles like the ML will have more space in which to fit the mechanicals due to their greater size though, so the designers will have more space to play with.

 

[grober]

I would refer you to my post of 12/03/2006 in this thread where new developments mean the size of the 4 matic transmission has been reduced to the extent it now fits the standard transmission tunnel. There was a similar situation with the old 190 5 cylinder diesel saloon where the turbo charged version was not imported into the UK because---- the exhaust manifold/turbo would not fit---funny that aftermarket conversion kits did A similar situation existed with Cosworth 16valve twin cam engines and their freeflow tubular exhaust systems-----what did they do---redesigned the manifold so that it did. Where there's a will there's a way If you read my post on the digital prototypes http://mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=32944
and immense engineering technology available to MB I find it hard to believe that engineering a RHD version of the new C class and existing E class saloons and estates is a problem. I have tried to get a rational explanation from Daimler Chrysler but as usual there was a lack of transparency in their very limited reply.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

immense engineering technology available to MB I find it hard to believe that engineering a RHD version of the new C class and existing E class saloons and estates is a problem.

It could no doubt be engineered fairly easily given a strong enough reason to do so!! However it would have either cost more to develop/build, have taken longer to get to market, or compromised the quality of the system fitted to LHD cars. Ultimately if there was a market for it, and it could be done profitably, they would almost certainly have done it!!

I suspect the RHD market for 4Matic saloons/estates is small relative to LHD, and so was discounted on the grounds of one of the above.

 

[grober]

bean counter mentality

I'm sure that in the 80- 90s there were lots of bean counters around saying

"big 4x4 SUV's, big ,clumsy,heavy to drive, poor handling, old fashioned construction,not very economical, they will never catch on in the home counties, there's never any snow or mud in Knightsbridge, why would anyone want one!"

I am sure you are correct when you say MB don't think there's a RHD market. I would just like to see some of their hard facts and figures which back that up assumption.

 

[Rory]

I am sure you are correct when you say MB don't think there's a RHD market. I would just like to see some of their hard facts and figures which back that up assumption.

I guess the business isssue is - how many additional sales would having 4Matic bring? There's not a lot of benefit to MB if the only customers are people who are already buying Mercs.

 

[grober]

The Australian angle

Maybe they could steal away a few customers from AUDI, VOLVO and SUBARU who obviously do feel its worth marketing 4wd saloons and estates in the UK? Perhaps they think that the existing 4wd saloon /estate market is already sewn up by these manufacturers and they have decided not to contest it. I really don't know. I know the new Saab 9-3 will have a 4wd model and SAAB have admitted they lost market penetration in Australia ( a RHD market) because they couldn't offer a 4WD Saloon/estate in their present line up. It serves as a reminder that the UK is not the only RHD market.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

This has got me thinking. Non-SUV production road cars with a 4WD derivative sold in UK, are relatively few and far between.

The ones that did make it to the UK don't seem to have been a runaway success, with one or two exceptions. And several probably only really made it viable through platform sharing.

Whilst not an exhaustive list, the only ones I can think of are listed below, there are no doubt more though:

Ford Sierra
Ford Escort (Mk5)
Ford Mondeo
Jaguar X-Type
Mitsubishi Galant
Mitsubishi Lancer
Renault 21
Subaru Justy
Subaru Imprezza
Subaru Legacy
Vauxhall Calibra
Vauxhall Cavalier (Mk3)
VW Golf (Mk2, Mk4, Mk5)
VW Passat (previous two generations)
Audi A3
Audi A4
Audi A6
Audi 80/90/Coupe
Volvo V70/XC70

Happy to be corrected. Many are high-performance versions, and that's excluded very high performance sports cars like Jensen, Porsche 911, Lamborghini, etc.

The unusual and relatively high volume entry in the list being the Jaguar X-Type, but apparently that was because it was more cost effective to re-engineer the Mondeo platform upon which it's based to 4WD rather than RWD - back then FWD was thought to be out-of-step with customer expectations.

 

[grober]

I would add to the comprehensive list you posted.

Alfa Romeo 33
Audi 200
BMW X5
BMW X3
Fiat PANDA 4x4 ( now available again along with the Fiat Sedici/ Suzuki SX4)
Ford Grenada
Honda Civic Shuttle
Lancia Delta (lhd only)
MERCEDES W124 SERIES 4MATIC mark 1- 2.6/3.0 litre petrol saloons/estates
Mitsubishi Galant VR4 24v( still available??)
Mitsubishi GTO
Subaru SVX
Toyota Tercel
LADA Riva ( mini SUV ?) new replacement due with Chevrolet badge?)

Looking at this list together with B D's list it strikes me that many of these 4x4 saloons were withdrawn from the British market about the time of the phenomenal growth in the 4x4 SUV market. Maybe the 4x4 market was lured away from 4x4 saloons/estates by the influx of SUV models?
Its all the RANGE ROVERS fault then .

 

[Rory]

BMW X5
BMW X3

X3 & X5 are SUV's, but BMW also did offer 5 Series (like 525iX) with AWD for a while in the UK.

Peugeot also had a few 405 models with AWD.

 

[grober]

Wrong designation

X3 & X5 are SUV's, but BMW also did offer 5 Series (like 525iX) with AWD for a while in the UK.

Sorry those early 3 and 5 series saloons were the models I meant. Used the wrong model designation should have read
325iX
525iX
as you said
Heres a pic of one in exactly the conditions they excel in, courtesy of J. G. Burns E34 Series pages.

 

[glojo]

Can't see Ford Zephyr or Jensen
There are a few more models not on the list.

Now that the tunnel issue has been resolved I wonder why Mercedes-Benz are still so intransigent? Could it simply be that in all the countries that still drive on the correct side of the road there is simply not the numbers to justify this modification?

As far as the US are concerned Mercedes-Benz do not build a 320CDI E-class estate? I am sure there are more folks wanting this option than there are UK owners wanting a new 4x4 MB car?

Regards,
John

 

[grober]

Can't see Ford Zephyr or Jensen
There are a few more models not on the list.

I had forgotten about the "flying pig" John, but I don't think they were ever on sale to the public. It was rumoured that the MK IV Ford Zephyr was originally designed to be front wheel drive, but the bean counters panicked at the last moment and a very compromised RWD redesign was rushed through! Because there was so much redundant space at the front it made the retrofit 4 wheel drive system a breeze.

I am guessing that the diesel engine problem was related to several state NOx emission regulations which prevented their sale or use. I think this has been largely overcome with Mercedes new Adblue urea injection system so things might change for the better.http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0-5-7179-1-627594-1-0-0-0-0-0-135-7165-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Can't see Ford Zephyr or Jensen
There are a few more models not on the list.

Got that one covered!!

Many are high-performance versions, and that's excluded very high performance sports cars like Jensen, Porsche 911, Lamborghini, etc.

 

[grober]

some new info on the s class 4matic. The new transmission shortly to debut in the new 2008 C class. http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/12354/first-drive-2007-mercedes-benz-s550-4matic.html

 

[grober]

Haldex Site

Rather nice technical site by HALDEX on their 4 wheel drive units. As used in some Audi, VW, AND VOLVO 4WD models and according to rumours http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2007/02/just_thinking.html on the 2008 SAAB 9-3 http://www.haldex-traction.com/default.htm

P.S. I would rather be writing about a new C class RHD 4matic model

 

[grober]

What car on Mercedes 4 matic

Theres a superficial video from What Car on the merits of Mercedes 4matic transmission telling us that Mercedes first produced its first 4WD vehicle vehicle in 1907 for safari in Africa and going on to review the remaining current models. The journalist ( On a nice "jolly" to the US !) doesn't actually read from a Mercedes script but it sounds pretty much the party line. He points out they make 4matic saloons for some markets also but not the UK. He re-assures us that you can of course buy the very large and expensive R,G, and M class vehicles instead. At the very end he lets slip that the new smaller SUV may or may not come the UK.
http://www.whatcar.com/news-article.aspx?NA=224093

 

[grober]

Effortless!

Yup I'm still banging on about the virtues of 4matic denied to the UK. Heres a clip of an old w124 4matic being driven briskly in snow. It starts 90 degrees out but the guy rights the camera quickly. Notice the light flashing on the instrument panel showing the system at work. looks effortless in conditions that would normally give a 2 WD Mercedes driver the heebie jeebies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8RmVAyEL3o&mode=related&search=