Bloomin Parking Ticket

[andy_k]

I think the sign is pretty clear

The '£1 per visit at these times' being the clincher.

Your 'visit' started outside of those hours so you have to pay the daytime tariff.

Had you arrived after 6.30, then you would be eligible for the reduced rate.

I wouldn't waste my time appealing that one - I suspect you are backing a loser

 

[Sp!ke]

I'm not sure I agree. There are clearly 2 parking tarrifs. One tarrif for hours parked before 18:30 and another lesser tarrif for times after 18:30.

I understand your point and it may well be that you are correct. However it doesnt actually stipulate the conditions you speak of and hence my reasons for possibly falling foul the (rather absent rules) and getting a ticket.

Do you consider the signage to be adequate?

 

[andy_k]

Sorry Sp!ke, in this case, I think the signage is more than adequate. I couldn't even deliberately misunderstand it if I wanted to

It makes no reference to parking after 6.30 p.m. What it clearly states is 'visits at these times'. Your visit started outside these times so you pay the tariff applicable when you park

It also says that no change is given, so if you overpay the daytime tariff it will keep your money.

There's no provision for part hours, the price is a flat £1.20 an hour, not 20p for 10 minutes.

What you should have done is sat in the car park until 5.30, paid your £1.20 for the hour then come back, driven around the block and bought an evening ticket

 

[Sp!ke]

Part of the term of my parking was "during" a time period where lesser charges applied - this is clearly stated.

If I park at a meter at 18:45 which operates until 7.00 according to your logic, I should continue paying to park beyond the 7 o'clock time because I parked there 'before' the parking enforcement ended.

Its an illogical argument in my mind.

The machine allows for part hours and lets face it, everything else in life including the ticket I received, counts in minutes. Its absurd to impose a penalty based upon a condition that isn't made clear at the time you pay (or enter into that contract).

 

[andy_k]

Part of the term of my parking was "during" a time period where lesser charges applied - this is clearly stated.

Where?

 

[andy_k]

If I park at a meter at 18:45 which operates until 7.00 according to your logic, I should continue paying to park beyond the 7 o'clock time because I parked there 'before' the parking enforcement ended.

Its an illogical argument in my mind.

In my mind that is an illogical argument which bears no relevence here

If parking restrictions end at 7 O'clock then you pay up until the restrictions end but that wasn't the case here was it?

At 6.30, a whole new tariff starts for people who's visit begins after 6.30 not for people who've been there a couple of hours beforehand.


The key word is visit not period/term of parking because that's a whole different thing

 

[ringway]

I'd say that to play it by the book would be to wait the 6, minutes for the evening tariff to commence and then buy the ticket for the evening parking.

However, this is all-but unworkable because it is always going to be a pain in the butt to return and then buy another ticket.

The fact that the "extra" was paid clearly shows good intention and based upon that alone I would challenge the fine on that premise and the fact of how inconvenient it is to have to return to pay again because of a time change.

The easy way out and THE solution to the problem is to find someone who bought the evening tariff ticket and get that ticket from them and present it when submitting the claim.

Harsh decision though in my opinion.

 

[Sp!ke]

You're being argumentative now.

Page 1 of this thread, about half way down there is a picture. It clearly states different charges during different times of the day.

What it does *not* say is that in order to satisfy the requirements of paying the lesser charge after 18:30 I must arrive at the car park after this time.

If this is indeed the case and you're assumptions are correct (and they can only be assumptions), then it should surely state this clearly?

Quite simply, my defence is such that the contract terms are not adequate for the contract to be legally binding.

I made every effort to follow the instructions afterall.

 

[andy_k]

You're being argumentative now.

As usual, if somebody disagrees with you, it's them that are being argumentative.

If you don't want people's opinions or suggestions - Don't ask for them

Page 1 of this thread, about half way down there is a picture. It clearly states different charges during different times of the day.

What it does *not* say is that in order to satisfy the requirements of paying the lesser charge after 18:30 I must arrive at the car park after this time.

If this is indeed the case and you're assumptions are correct (and they can only be assumptions), then it should surely state this clearly?

It clearly (in bright red letters) states that it is £1 per visit at these times.

the ticket you bought clearly states that your visit began at 17.24

What is it that I am missing here?

Quite simply, my defence is such that the contract terms are not adequate for the contract to be legally binding

Good luck with that one, as much as I hate parking tickets I really don't think you have a leg to stand on

I made every effort to follow the instructions afterall.

No you didn't, you bought a ticket which expired at 19:24 and stayed in the car park beyond that time (see right hand column on conditions of use). Usually, on the machine, it displays the expiry time before it issues the ticket. On every single machine down here it says something like 'check expiry time before printing ticket'

Anyway, I'm not going to be argumentative any more - I'm off to bed.

if you choose to appeal, good luck. If it were me I'd take it on the chin because you'll probably find these parking appeal guys a lot more 'argumentative' than me

 

[Sp!ke]

I interpret £1 per visit to mean something else entirely.

I understand it to mean that one cannot purchase a £1 ticket and then use it for multiple stays throughout the evening. You have to pay each time you re-enter the car park.

I appreciate the point you are making but I simply disagree.

It does not say anywhere that in order to satisfy the requirements of the evening rate that I have to enter the car park after this period.

I will be fighting this ticket and yes, I may well lose. (initially) It doesn't mean to say that it is right however and if common sense and logic prevails, it is clear that I paid for each and every minute of my stay.

 

[alanuk400]

This site can help
PePiPoo: Helping the motorist to get justice

Alan

 

[stevesey]

You may well be right... the expiry time on my ticket says 19:24. However, if I parked after 18:30 and put in a pound, who'se to say thet the expiry time on the ticket will be any later bearing in mind the machine works out the times at £1.20 per hour.

The machine is a bit more suphisciated than simply £1.20 per hour - it knows the time and will calculate the expiry date/time and charging structure so based on the money you put in - had you put in the extra £1 I full expect the expiry date/time would have jumped the next morning.

Most of these machines display the expiry time as you add money. So whilst I think it's worth appealing based on the written instructions being unclear, the council may well reject it on the basis that the expiry time was displayed by the machine before you pressed the green button.

 

[robert.saunders]

Sp!ke, did you not check your expiry time on the ticket you purchased?

As has been said already, you are required to pay the hourly rate (£1.20 per hour or part thereof) until the evening rate kicks in, then you pay the evening rate. Harsh as it is to pay £1.20 for 6mins that's the way it is - you're effectively paying up to an hour for each £1.20.

You mentioned challenging this for no contravention. A contravention has occurred so that's not technically correct on your part.

You have the right to make an informal challenge which is what I would do, explaining how you find the signage misleading. It is likely they will respond and state it is clear, but if you feel it isn't wait for your Notice to Owner to be served, and state again in your formal representation that the signage is unclear in your mind.

At this stage you will have lost the right to the 50% discount on the charge amount to pay, but that is the regulations courtesy of the traffic management act 04.

If they reject further, you can appeal to Tribunal, and state to an adjudicator who is independent of the authority, that you consider the sign misleading. If they agree with you (which to be fair they may well) then you will "win" and pay nothing. If Tribunal reject your appeal then you will have to pay the PCN.

Either way, ignore it and the charge increases by a further 50% (thanks tma'04 again) following the issue of a charge certificate. Continue to ignore and it's registered for warrant of recovery through certificated bailiffs.

PCN process is explained here:

ParkingEnforcement

And the tribunal stage here:

TMAAdjudicatorsHome

Go to pepipoo if you like, it's a reasonable justice fight site, but a lot of rubbish is posted there frankly; enter at your peril

 

[kwakdonut]

How about contacting your local councillor and explaining that the two tariffs are misleading? I imagine that they will just change it to the one '£1.20 per hour' tariff but then less people would get caught out......d'oh, then the council wouldn't make so much money from the fines - oh how stupid of me to suggest such a thing!

It's Kingston too, I got a parking ticket there a few years back and challenged it - not a hope in hell......

 

[robert.saunders]

I sometimes get Members (councillors) "interacting" with PCNs on behalf of friends, ward constituents etc. I oft quote from the Statutory Guidance and send them on their way

92. Elected members may wish to review their parking representations policies, particularly in the area of discretion, to ensure consistency with published policies.

However, elected members and unauthorised staff should not, under any circumstances, play a part in deciding the outcome of individual challenges or representations. This is to ensure that only fully trained staff make decisions on the facts presented.

The authority’s standing orders should be specific as to which officers have the authority to cancel PCNs. There should also be a clear audit trail of decisions taken with reasons for those decisions.

 

[Dryce]

Sorry Sp!ke, in this case, I think the signage is more than adequate. I couldn't even deliberately misunderstand it if I wanted to

Signage is not adequate.

It's actually quite ambiguous.

It say's "£1.20 per hour" - not "£1.20 per hour or part thereof".

However it doesn't actually say when the daytime rate starts/finishes. This is only implied by the evening times. As suggested this could imply that the daytime rate applies to any visit that begins outwith the evening rate.

Then there is the problem that you only discover the time printed on the ticket after it is printed. That makes the ambiguity quite misleading.

This sort of signage is a good demonstration as to why software is often so buggy. Whoever wrote it didn't think it through. It's poorly designed. It's not clear what the outcome is should you enter any given amount of money at any time.

 

[andy_k]

Then there is the problem that you only discover the time printed on the ticket after it is printed. That makes the ambiguity quite misleading.

Not around here, the expiry time is shown on the machine before you print the ticket - usually with a warning to check the expiry time before printing

 

[verytalldave]

My sympathies lie entirely with Sp!ke. However, I have to concour with a few other posters in that if the point were persued you would be onto a loser.
I agree that the sign wording could be better and have greater clarity, but that is not the point.
What you should have done to fully comply with the terms of the notice is to pay your £2.40p and at some point in the second hour - after 6.30 - driven out the car park and then re-parked and then pay the £1 night charge - making as many have said - a total of £3.40p.
You could of course reduced that by £1.20 by parking 6 minutes later in the first place.
All a load of tosh in reality and I am sure you are by no means the first to be stung like this and you certainly wont be the last.
Not what you wanted to read I know, but thats my considered opinion.
Sorry.

 

[robert.saunders]

Then there is the problem that you only discover the time printed on the ticket after it is printed. That makes the ambiguity quite misleading...

Actually, it's printed on the electronic display on the machine before you press the ticket button, so you can see what has been paid and what the expiry time is before you commit to purchase

 

[andy_k]

Actually, it's printed on the electronic display on the machine before you press the ticket button, so you can see what has been paid and what the expiry time is before you commit to purchase

I said something like that two posts ago