CDI engine into W124

[Nastynick]

Hi all.

Has anyone heard of a W124 (either saloon, estate or coupe) being fitted with a more modern CDI diesel engine?

I love the W124s but would prefer them to have more modern performance and fuel comsumption. Would a 270 or 320 CDI engine fit in the engine bay? Would there be a problem with engine mounts etc?

Many thanks in advance.

Nick.

 

[nick mercedes]

Hi all.

Has anyone heard of a W124 (either saloon, estate or coupe) being fitted with a more modern CDI diesel engine?

I love the W124s but would prefer them to have more modern performance and fuel comsumption. Would a 270 or 320 CDI engine fit in the engine bay? Would there be a problem with engine mounts etc?

Many thanks in advance.

Nick.

A W210 E300TD is a better engine and an easier install.

 

[krimat2005]

might be worth reading http://www.automobilesdeluxe.tv/tag/mercedes-190d/

 

[312 Sprinter]

Getting the CDI engine phyically into the car will be the least of your worries. The issue is getting the electronics to work so the engine will actually run.

 

[alexander patie]

as above, you would need some kind of bespoke or hybrid ecu, or else fit the entire esp, ignition and loads of other electrical gear too.

 

[dinoy]

A W210 E300TD is a better engine and an easier install.

is it not that e300 w210 (early models) have same engine as in the last w124 e300 diesel??

 

[grober]

Might I suggest with reference to 312 Sprinter's post that the simplest transplant may be to use a MB diesel from a commercial vehicle with a manual gearbox since there is less chance of experiencing problems with the associated electronics [ which you will have to transplant with the engine as he said] since they will be less integrated into other vehicle systems. The downside is that a) these engines can have mega miles on them b) they are greatly in demand.

 

[nick mercedes]

is it not that e300 w210 (early models) have same engine as in the last w124 e300 diesel??

No turbo on the 124s.

 

[nick mercedes]

Might I suggest with reference to 312 Sprinter's post that the simplest transplant may be to use a MB diesel from a commercial vehicle with a manual gearbox since there is less chance of experiencing problems with the associated electronics [ which you will have to transplant with the engine as he said] since they will be less integrated into other vehicle systems. The downside is that a) these engines can have mega miles on them b) they are greatly in demand.

Vans are Cdis too, so just as much electronics as a car.

 

[312 Sprinter]

I think Nick Froome has posted up details of the Simtek Body Logic diesel ECU when this has been discussed previously. However they don't have an off the shelf Mercedes CDI solution so it needs to be developed.

The basic issue with modern CANbus controlled engines is that the factory electronics will look for signals from the gearbox, speed sensors, air conditioning etc etc etc in order to determine what the engine should be doing. You can't simply stuff it into another car and hope it'll run without being integrated to the ABS, airco etc as it'll simply throw a fault code.

You therefore need a way to run it without the factory electronics.

I like the idea of it but I wonder if it is really worth the bother? A late W124 petrol E320 has more power than a W210 E320 CDI. If it is about reducing fuel cost a really good LPG conversion such as a Prins VSI system will cost £1500 or so installed. It ought to be able to 19 to the gallon on LPG on a bad day. I never managed much more than 39 to the gallon out of my W210 E320 CDI. Fuel costs will therefore be fairly similar but you won't create a W214 E320 CDI for anywhere near the cost of gas converting a petrol model.

 

[jaymanek]

never going to happen without a massive budget. Mercedes have done just this job with a 190E and even that was difficult and needed a huge budget and access to resources that can only be found at Mercedes.

 

[st4]

You need to transplant all the running gear and electronics to make it work.

 

[CRASH67]

most engine transplant are doable its how big is you pockets really.

 

[312 Sprinter]

never going to happen without a massive budget. Mercedes have done just this job with a 190E and even that was difficult and needed a huge budget and access to resources that can only be found at Mercedes.

Interesting project that.

"The greatest challenge during this project was not in fact the hardware, but rather the electronics", says Peter Lehmann. This because the 190 did not yet have a CAN-bus as a data transfer system. In the current C-Class with its state- of-the-art OM 651 engine, more than one dozen control units are in constant communication with each other to coordinate their respective tasks. The car will not start without the right signals, as the electronic ignition lock acts as a link between the engine CAN-bus and the interior CAN-bus.

So the team creating the 190 D BlueEFFICIENCY came up with a clever idea: they fooled the engine into thinking it was on a test bench. The appropriate signals are sent by a box of electronics roughly the size of two shoe-boxes in the boot. This is what enabled the OM651 to spring to life, and it performs its duties with the usual quietness and refinement under the bonnet of the W 201.

But the next problem was not long in coming: for the car to operate as it should, the electronics required ABSsignals. Turning wheels cannot be duplicated even on a virtual test bench, however, so once again the electronics specialists were called for - and now the ABSsignals are likewise simulated."

automobilsport.com - Mercedes 190 D BlueEFFICIENCY experimental vehicle - Conversion work: Generations in conflict

 

[grober]

Folks might be interested in this post detailing a '99 OM606 Turbo install it in a 87 300TD w124---- '99 E300D engine swap into S124 - Benzworld.org - Mercedes-Benz Discussion Forum

 

[CRASH67]

if you insistant on a CDI engine a early 611 612 or 613 would be what to look at as they not CAN BUS
wheres 646 651 and 642 are i think

 

[franey]

I had the same dream here:

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/engine/90931-w124-320-cdi.html

But then the daylight came, had breakfast and I was back to normal shortly after.

Seriously, big money big time, big niggles.

I wanted to do it as there was a new 124 shell on ebay.
Thankfully somebody bought the shell otherwise I would be going through a divorce by now, and I am not even married.

 

[clk208]

Not quite the same thing but a mechanic that works on some of my family's cars bought a subaru shell and built the rally car of his dreams literally from scratch, including obviously fitting a modern engine and all the complicated electrionics!

Nowhere near as complex as getting a modern engine into a W124 but seriously impressive (to me at least!) nonetheless. I haven't asked how much it cost or how long it took.

 

[312 Sprinter]

Not quite the same thing but a mechanic that works on some of my family's cars bought a subaru shell and built the rally car of his dreams literally from scratch, including obviously fitting a modern engine and all the complicated electrionics!

Nowhere near as complex as getting a modern engine into a W124 but seriously impressive (to me at least!) nonetheless. I haven't asked how much it cost or how long it took.

Petrol engines are easy. There is a wide choice of aftermarket ECUs to make them run, From open source megasquirt to Haltech, Emerald, Weber etc etc etc.

It is the CDI bit that is hard to do.

 

[bolide]

Petrol engines are easy. There is a wide choice of aftermarket ECUs to make them run, From open source megasquirt to Haltech, Emerald, Weber etc etc etc.

It is the CDI bit that is hard to do.

The reason for this is simple when you think about it. A petrol EFI system throws a bit of fuel in every now and then (*) but late CDi engines use a short pre-injection followed by a number of very quick pulses of fuel at precise timings. This gives you a smoother burn and reduces the horrible combustion noise of high-pressure diesels. The timing of all this happens in a very, very short window which is why such high-tech injectors are needed

The diesel setup has to do all this within a 3D map and also manage boost and waste gate timing, manage torque output in low gears to stop blowing up the gearbox, manage torque output during shifts with autoboxes, manage idle & engine speed when the a/c kicks in & out, manage EGR, manage variable valve timing, manage rail pressure, & etc & etc

Manufacturers and the aftermarket have had years to come up with solutions for petrol engines. But modern diesels are serious high-tech sh*t and need lots of management to stop them going bang expensively

A friend has just spent about four months (hopefully) getting to the bottom of a fault on a Citroen HDi engine. It has at least two fuel pressure sensors, two fuel pumps, a fuel pressure regulator, two temp sensors, no MAF (strangely) and all the other sensors. When it refuses to run the ECU stores no fault codes so diagnosis is nigh-on impossible

I'd love a W124 E320 CDi but will wait for someone very clever (and with deep pockets) to make a kit of parts

* slight oversimplification

Nick Froome