cls 55 amg vs astra vxr

[v11vxr]

Unfortunately I'm the guy in the vxr, and dont own a merc (yet!).

Was about xmas time when I popped to the super market one evening. The Merc was in front of me, and we just took it nice and steady down to a set of traffic lights. There were two lanes of traffic going straight over the crossroads and we were in one lane (at the front) and there were a couple of other cars in the other lane.

When the lights changed green, mister Merc floored it a bit to get passed the other cars, and I followed him. As soon as he realised I was behind him, he floored it!

We were in a 40 zone, and I'd only just taken delivery of my car, so I didnt push it too much, but it was amazing to see him fly down the road. Even if I'd pushed the pedal right down, theres no way I could've kept up with him!

I've seen the merc a few times now, and it looks Swweeeeeeet! Saving my pennies up and maybe in a few years..................

Great forum btw - just found it today!

 

[wallingd]

Welcome - nice to have you on board. Friendly bunch is we .

 

[v11vxr]

Cheers buddy.

 

[Thmsshaun]

Welcome to the site.

 

[jeremytaylor]

Welcome.

I was driven round the Merc test track in a CLS last year, but 'only' a CLS500. An experience that will live with me for some time yet ...

Like you, I'm saving those pennies.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Welcome to the forum. I'm a Vauxhall fan too - check out zlet.co.uk and request membership of the forum (owner only) - it's an excellent forum, and probably the best for your car IMHO. In your application, tell 'em I sent you!!

 

[BearFace]

Unfortunately I'm the guy in the vxr.............................

..................We were in a 40 zone, and I'd only just taken delivery of my car, so I didnt push it too much, but it was amazing to see him fly down the road. Even if I'd pushed the pedal right down, theres no way I could've kept up with him!

If I'm honest, I was expecting a thread in which some VXR owner had come to lay claim to the notion that he'd just beaten a CLS 55AMG. How refreshing it is to hear that you're not one of those deluded boy-racers who post some of the most ludicrous claims in car forums, such as "My Corsa 1.4 SRi did 146 MPH on a wet B-road this morning...."

Those VXRs are very quick though, or at least they are when they can get that power down. There are now a couple of them in my village, and I've been behind one of them on a few occasions recently travelling towards the M62 on a twisty local road. Although I've never engaged the guy in a race of any kind (mainly because I've been in the wrong Beemer each time...), I can appreciate the turn of speed and also the agility that car possesses. Impressive stuff...

Have you thought about the engine upgrades that the VXR people recommend through several approved centres in the UK? I'm aware of a stage 1 conversion which gives something like 280BHP for a few hundred quid or so. More importantly, it doesn't affect your warranty.........

 

[Doodle]

It seems to be an inherent problem with a lot of the new breed of hot hatches, especially the turbocharged ones. Just too much grunt to get down on the road properly, especially without the assistance of a decent LSD.

The lack of an LSD on the EP3 Civic Type R's was a serious oversight by Honda, it just didn't drive as well as the previous hot models, although they just about got away with it. I'm eagerly awaiting the full specs for the new CTR, let's hope they don't make the same mistake again.

 

[machasm]

Crikey Bearface! The guy has only just got the car nad your already talking about tuning it! LOL

Welcome to the forum mate.
Mac.

 

[BearFace]

It seems to be an inherent problem with a lot of the new breed of hot hatches, especially the turbocharged ones. Just too much grunt to get down on the road properly, especially without the assistance of a decent LSD.

The lack of an LSD on the EP3 Civic Type R's was a serious oversight by Honda, it just didn't drive as well as the previous hot models, although they just about got away with it. I'm eagerly awaiting the full specs for the new CTR, let's hope they don't make the same mistake again.

Yup, it's just a simple matter of physics that even a quality LSD system won't solve. That said, the fundamental difference between the VXR and the "old" Civic Type R was torque; the Vauxhall produces 236lb ft from pretty low down and the Civic - it being more of a high-revving "screamer" - knocks out just 145lb ft from something like 4000 rpm, so it suffers far less with inherent torque steer than the VXR.

Interestingly, the new Type R is going to be offered intially with the same engine and power output as the old one. I just hope they've addressed the feel of the car, because in the previous model it was hard to know what the driven wheels were doing at any given time. I'm unsure as to whether they used electric power steering in place of hydraulic, but certainly something gave it a very wooden steering quality.

 

[BearFace]

Crikey Bearface! The guy has only just got the car nad your already talking about tuning it! LOL

Welcome to the forum mate.
Mac.

Heh heh...

Well, if the guy wants to race CLS 55 AMGs, he's gonna need a bit more poke, that's all I'm sayin'...

 

[v11vxr]

Yea the VXR is a good car. Feels well made, handles well on the road, and flys round the corners well!. You do have to be a bit careful though. Need to make sure you hold the old steering wheel nice and steady when flooring it in 1st and 2nd gear! The car is certainly a lot better than old JC made out on Top Gear. You just need to know how to drive a fwd car properly.

I've had a little race with an Impreza STi a couple of weeks back. We were already on a dual carriageway doing about 60mph when we both went for it. He wasnt getting away from me but if we'd raced from a standing start, I dont think I'd stand much of a chance!

As you said, its all about getting the power down, and 240bhp through the front wheels can be a tad tricky!

Theres a company called Thorney Motorsport who have developed a 3 stage upgrade to the car which I think can take the car upto about 300bhp. They've obviously had the problem of getting that kind of power down through the front wheels, and have developed it somehow so the chasis can handle it.
Just need to convince my wife that its a 'worth-while investment' to get the upgrade! Shes not having any of it though! But I'm still working on it!

 

[Doodle]

Yup, it's just a simple matter of physics that even a quality LSD system won't solve. That said, the fundamental difference between the VXR and the "old" Civic Type R was torque; the Vauxhall produces 236lb ft from pretty low down and the Civic - being more of a high-revving scremer - knocks out just 145lb ft from something like 4000 rpm, so it suffers far less with inherent torque steer than the VXR.

Interestingly, the new Type R is going to be offered intially with the same engine and power output as the old one. I just hope they've addressed the feel of the car, because in the previous model it was hard to know what the driven wheels were doing at any given time. I'm unsure as to whether they used electric power steering in place of hydraulic, but certainly something gave it a very wooden steering quality.

The CTR was built down to a budget, and it shows. Electric power steering, no LSD, etc etc. The ITR suffered no such budgeting, so has the normal power steering, standard LSD, bigger brakes and various other trick bits that the CTR missed out on, and by god it shows, it's a much better drive!
It's a shame really, previously even the lesser VTI's had all the toys.

The initial specs I've managed to swipe from my contacts at Honda indicate that the new CTR will be running 20" wheels...could be good, could be a very big mistake!

 

[BearFace]

The CTR was built down to a budget, and it shows. Electric power steering, no LSD, etc etc. The ITR suffered no such budgeting, so has the normal power steering, standard LSD, bigger brakes and various other trick bits that the CTR missed out on, and by god it shows, it's a much better drive!
It's a shame really, previously even the lesser VTI's had all the toys.

Wow, I hadn't realised that the Civic Type R lost out on so much kit compared to the Integra. I mean, it (the Civic) was one heck of a lot of car for £16k, but then I suppose the spec difference is justified by the Integra's (grey import) pricing, which is around £22k.

If the new Civic offers more feel to the driver (hydraulic PAS would be a good start...) then I should think it'll be fighting for the top "hot hatch" crown, although I'm personally in favour of a hefty low-down dollop of torque to a high-revving, narrow powerband kind of engine. That said, there's less of a need for LSD if the engine remains fairly peaky, which would help costs.

Now if Honda could produce a forced induction version of that engine, with perhaps a supercharger (Toyota have done something similar with the Corolla T Sport - which is admittedly crap, apart from that engine - and the same engine in the Lotus Exige), producing say.........270 BHP..........then I think they'll have the makings of a true benchmark hot hatch for the early 21st century. Imagine a sub-£20k sports hatch with that kind of power (0-60 in 5 secs....0-100 in 13 secs) and with decent poise and precision (discounting the torque-steer, coz that would be a given)............well I'd probably have to buy one, for a start

The initial specs I've managed to swipe from my contacts at Honda indicate that the new CTR will be running 20" wheels...could be good, could be a very big mistake!

Looking into my crystal balls, I see massive tyre bills, lots of kerbed alloys and the kind of ride quality we used to experience when our Dads built us "bogies" out of scraps of wood and pram wheels. Still, if that's what the kids want, then it's fine with me

 

[BearFace]

Just need to convince my wife that its a 'worth-while investment' to get the upgrade! Shes not having any of it though! But I'm still working on it!

Aha.............your first mistake - asking your wife for her permission to upgrade the car. Big no-no......

Does she ask for your permission to buy expensive shoes, handbags and designer clothing..? That was a rhetorical question.........

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Now if Honda could produce a forced induction version of that engine, with perhaps a supercharger

Well if Ariel can do it, surely Honda can??

http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/04/latest_01_04.htm

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Theres a company called Thorney Motorsport who have developed a 3 stage upgrade to the car which I think can take the car upto about 300bhp. They've obviously had the problem of getting that kind of power down through the front wheels, and have developed it somehow so the chasis can handle it.

I know a few owners with 300bhp (or close to). Getting the power down from standstill is a problem, but on a roll can show a clean pair of heels to some seriously quick cars. The torque is probably what does it - 300lb/ft is madness!! LSDs do help on the very high output cars though.

Regal on the south coast have a 340bhp plus variant, admittedly with a different turbo.

BTW Boost is limited in low gears to manage power delivery and give the chassis a fighting chance - part of the reason that there are some easy pickings for re-maps.

 

[Doodle]

Well if Ariel can do it, surely Honda can??

http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/04/latest_01_04.htm

Oh, they can, they just choose not to. Honda have done turbo motors in the past, but have chosen to stick to what they do better than anyone else...superbly reliable naturally aspirated engines. They were chucking out mass production 100bhp per litre car engines back in the 80's.

After all, Honda was started by one man who wanted to make engines, unlike all other Japanese car companies who started car production to make money.

 

[CAT220]

The CTR was built down to a budget, and it shows. Electric power steering, no LSD, etc etc. The ITR suffered no such budgeting, so has the normal power steering, standard LSD, bigger brakes and various other trick bits that the CTR missed out on, and by god it shows, it's a much better drive!
It's a shame really, previously even the lesser VTI's had all the toys.

The initial specs I've managed to swipe from my contacts at Honda indicate that the new CTR will be running 20" wheels...could be good, could be a very big mistake!

I bought one one of the current CTR's in March 2003 and still love it, agreed it does suffer from not having an LSD and the steering lacks feedback to the driver, regards the brakes, they're excellent, mine are standard only thing ive changed over the years are the pads. Had the pleasure of out breaking many more powerful cars mainly scoobies on tracks, so no complaints on the brakes. One thing that really does need changing are the standard bridgestones they are fantastic on smooth, dry roads, however shocking in the wet, changed to Toyo Proxos as soon as I could and what a difference. For 16k and three and a bit years on id still say there is a not a better built package on the market, the gearbox, engine are fantastic.

I'm now thinking of what to go for next, i'm not mad about the looks of the new concept CTR, Ive heard various specs etc all based around the current power plant, I expect the car to be on 18in rims as I think 20in would have an adverse effect on performance. Also heard they're going back to basics with a more stripped out approach to reduce weight, be nice if they stick an LSD in there and sort the steering out, although the steering in the 2005 models onwards has greatly improved.

Just me 2p worth.

p. enjoy the VXR - looks a beast!

Cheers,
C