Clunking noise front passager wheel also movement when rocking front wheels?

[Paragon1970]

Hi Folks,
I have been doing some research but still baffled with the issue I am experiencing.
Car = W211 e-class e280 estate (2008)
When I go over small bumps I hear a rattle down by the passenger front wheel area.

I thought it may be a ball joint so purchase a ball joint removal tool and front lower ball joints.
However on inspection I am not seeing any obvious play.
I used a number of methods including a bar under the tire to lift the wheel suspension assembly up and down but no obvious movement.
Used a crow bar around the joints nothing to really notice.

But.....
With the wheels on I can slightly rock both wheel back and fourth when holding at the 12 and 6 oclock position. (both front wheels)
Also I have just noticed if I rotate the wheels back and forth I can feel movement in the whole suspension assembly, well mainly on the knuckles and I can feel it also at the upper ball joint again on both wheels.

Another thing I notice is that when coming to a stop I hear and feel a clunk when applying the breaks again from the front section of the car.

There is no play when rocking the wheels from the 9 and 3 oclock position so this would indicate the tie rods appear to be ok.

If the issue was with wheel bearing I would expect to see play when rocking in the 9 and 3 oclock position right?

I am just about to pick up the upper balljoint assembly since this appears to be the easiest thing to replace but again I do not witness any discernible movement here except when rotating the wheel backwards and forwards, should also note for clarity that one can feel the movement when rocking wheels backward and forward while holding various part of the suspension area. (again both front wheels)

Really could do with some help in identifying the possible causes guys since I hope to be taking the car abroad in the coming weeks to the alps.

Should say this noise has been happening for sometime, I took it a local dealer who agreed it existed but could not find any issue when up on the ramp.

Kind Regards,
SRG

 

[Stratman]

When you say

should also note for clarity that one can feel the movement when rocking wheels backward and forward while holding various part of the suspension area.

do you mean you feel movement in the wheel or in the joint you're holding, also does 'backward and forward' mean inwards and outwards or in the direction of rotation?

 

[streethawk]

First off on mine I had on one side a very little play 12 and 6 o clock. I removed wheel bearing cap and under there you'll find a Allen bolt clamping the wheel bolt nut. Slacken and turn it, only turned mine say 10 degrees with my fingers and that sorted that. The bottom control arm where the anti roll bar and drop link connect has a ball joint in which I think on mine has a little play but can't feel it but can hear it. New arms needed and lemforder are the best to buy but iirc are 60 odd pounds. Maybe this is your problem.

 

[Paragon1970]

Thanks Chaps,

@Stratman I can feel movement in almost every component of the suspension assembly it seems slightly more pronounced at the upper ball joints but can also be felt around the lower components such as the arm that joins via the lower ball joint, also felt slightly at the tie rod this is witnessed when I rotate either front wheel around its axis, clockwise and then anti-clockwise while applying pressure to the tyre. When this occurs it feels like the whole knuckle shifts forward ever so slightly, same on both sides.

When I push in against the 12 oclock then the 6 oclock positions in a rocking motion I feel a slight movement an a slight clonk.

On a related note I decided to have ago at changing the upper ball joint but have hit a snag. The upper ball joint is of the later type with three nuts that hold it in place and a single nut that tightens up the top of knuckle.

I followed some youtube instruction and loosened off the main nut attached to the ball. I did not completely remove the nut but back it off enough so I could crack the taper that holds the ball joint in place as per you tube instruction without the whole thing separating. To be honest I felt more comfortable leaving the nut slighty on as I did not know what to expect when the knuckle arm separates from the ball joint. Could someone maybe enlighten me on this, is there anything I need to look out for? Does it swing out? Is it under any load for example?
Anyways I used the correct tool to crack the taper. After it cracked I continued to undo the nut but then I noticed the nut spinning the ball joint instead of undoing! Whats the best solution to overcome this?

At this point I have lost light, I have the car on jack stands and its friday night so hope that a drunk muppet doesn't decide to have some fun with it! I am freezing cold, wet, and generally pretty peeved off and to top this off I am still no closer to fixing the issue, what a day, still breathing though! ;-)


Thanks Again,
SRG

 

[Stratman]

After it cracked I continued to undo the nut but then I noticed the nut spinning the ball joint instead of undoing! Whats the best solution to overcome this?

The threaded bit of the ball may well have a socket for an Allen key in its end, for just this problem.

Have you rocked the wheel (12 and 6 o'clock) with the brakes applied? If there is no wheel movement with the brakes on but there is with them off, it points to a badly adjusted or worn wheel bearing. If there is movement with them on or off, there's a worn joint somewhere.

Bear in mind you'll always get a slight movement in rubber suspension joints because the rubber moves.

 

[Reamer]

There should be an female alan head in the end of the taper. You can then hold it whilst turning the nut.


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[Minden99]

Make sure one of your brake pads friction material hasn't delaminated away from its backing. I had that problem. Bloody annoying as I couldnt find any play anywhere but needed to replace discs n pads that's when I found it.

 

[Paragon1970]

Thanks for this info. I did notice the allan slot, the light was fading but will check with anticipation tomorrow, thank a mill for this

I did check the 12 - 6 o'clock with the brake alternately applied. The problem is it seemed to lessen the movement but not totally, heck it could be I need to replace just about everything under the car including the bearings.

The thing is a shot bearing should not cause the assembly to shift backwards and forwards when one rotates the wheel right?
An example of what it kind of feels like...
Not sure whether you have experienced the issue as a kid with a push bike that has a loose steering stem which then transfers as a little forward movement when applying the front brake? Well, when rotating the front wheel(s) back and forth clock wise / anti-clockwise on the E280 it gives a similar kind of feeling, it almost feels very slightly delayed when turning the wheel and feeling / hearing the slight movement in the knuckle and requires hardly any pressure on the wheel, just little rotations in one direction then the other. OK maybe not the best analogy but its the one I keep thinking back to, life seemed simpler then ;-)

Thanks again for the allan key tip, hoping there will be on on this ball joint.

Update: will also check the break pads as per Minden99 suggestion, just seen your posts. (Thanks)

Cheers,
SRG

 

[streethawk]

Thanks for this info. I did notice the allan slot, the light was fading but will check with anticipation tomorrow, thank a mill for this

I did check the 12 - 6 o'clock with the brake alternately applied. The problem is it seemed to lessen the movement but not totally, heck it could be I need to replace just about everything under the car including the bearings.

The thing is a shot bearing should not cause the assembly to shift backwards and forwards when one rotates the wheel right?
An example of what it kind of feels like...
Not sure whether you have experienced the issue as a kid with a push bike that has a loose steering stem which then transfers as a little forward movement when applying the front brake? Well, when rotating the front wheel(s) back and forth clock wise / anti-clockwise on the E280 it gives a similar kind of feeling, it almost feels very slightly delayed when turning the wheel and feeling / hearing the slight movement in the knuckle and requires hardly any pressure on the wheel, just little rotations in one direction then the other. OK maybe not the best analogy but its the one I keep thinking back to, life seemed simpler then ;-)

Thanks again for the allan key tip, hoping there will be on on this ball joint.

Update: will also check the break pads as per Minden99 suggestion, just seen your posts. (Thanks)

Cheers,
SRG

With this explanation it sounds like the torque arm ball joint or the torque arm bush. The torque arm is the low one closest to the front of the car. Top ball joint under no pressure when jacked up. Just remove nut until only a few threads hold it then split. Then remove 3 bolts and pull the ball joint out. The reason you can't remove nut at the moment is because you split it and it's a nylon lock nut so tight until nearly off.

 

[Paragon1970]

Streethawk when you say torque arm do you mean the tension / torsion strut (33140) which has the embedded ball joint or the spring loaded arm (33142) which connects to the lower supporting ball joint (33113)?

Please see image below:



Thanks for your reply,

SRG

 

[streethawk]

33140 that's the one

 

[Paragon1970]

Hi Folks,
Quick Update as still in the process of working this job.

After releasing the top ball joint and on inspection all looks good, indeed it seems to be in better shape than the new after market one I just purchased, so I decided not to replace it at this time.

I dug out my TDI (Test Dial Indicator) and mounted the mag base to the rotor and set the dial against the hub. On pulling and pushing I read a deviation of around ~0.07 mm maybe a little more, while doing so I also felt a click. The WIS sheet shows the runnout should be between 0.01-0.02 mm so it is showing around three times out of tolerance.

Loosed off the hub retaining hex bolt and to my surprise the hub not was pretty loose, not quite as loose as hand tight but loose enough that I could turn it with a screw driver wedged in the split gap. Managed to tighten it up by a 1/4 of a turn but need to get a wrench bigger enough to fit the hub, off to shop to pick up a larger adjustable.

Measured the play as is and its down to a 0.04mm so needs a little more on it.

Will update soon.

Cheers,
SRG

 

[Paragon1970]

Sorry for not updating sooner.

So managed to tighten up the passenger wheel bearing to around .01 runnout which is on the money.
The following day did the same on front drivers side. The centre hub nut was even looser than the one on the passenger side. The runnout = around ~ .2mm!
After loosining the allen retaining bolt the hub nut was hand tight.
Tightened it up but could not improve on any better than around .05mm with the tools I had, the nut seemed quite tight but on measuring it was still out of spec .05mm (should be within .01-.02mm) guess I need to invest in some new bearings.

All of this has not improved the low rumbling or more like a warbling sound coming from the passenger side every time I hit small bumps at fairly slow speed.
Ball joints look good, local indi Mercedes garage 'apparently' took a look during gearbox oil change and mentioned there was nothing obvious, but the noise is still there and I have always been taught where there is noise there is generally wear.

Guess the only way to be sure is to start changing things out firstly the lower / upper ball joints and go from there.

Cheers,
SRG

 

[paulsimon28]

Well it’s 20-9 and I’m seeing a tread that covers my issue! Did anyone resolve this? My o/s/f wheel has a small amount of play when rocked at 12/6 o’clock position, changed brakes, ball joints and tightened bearing? Still got the noise!! Any ideas?