Court Summons?

[Spinal]

First and foremost:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Secondly, sorry about my long absence, I've had exams, thesis and generallly bad days... anyhow, down to the point...

As some of you might remember, in november I had an accident with a biker. I was at a junction, (in the filter lane), the traffic light was red to turn right, and I had 2 cars in front of me. The light turned green to turn right, the two cars went ahead, I went ahead, stopped (with my indicator still on) making sure no-one came down the red-lighted road and then u-turned. On that road, I was allowed to u-turn (went back to double-check). Unfortunately, as I u-turned I heard a crunch and saw a biker on the floor in my RVM. Stopped, witness stopped, police&ambulance came and all was fine... or so I thought.

The insurance companies are still debating who's fault it was, and I need to review the witnesses statement when they send it to me (they have sent it, I haven't received it yet). But, when I thought that it was a nice insurance matter, I got a court summons from the police, stating that I was being charged for "driving without due care and attention".

So, with shaky hands (first accident/court case/etc in my life) I call the RAC (they had told me they had legal advice) and explain the scenario to them. They reccomend that if I can get the witness to give a statement saying that I was driving with dcaa (due care and attention) then I might have a chance, otherwise I might as well as plea guilty as the court would use the "if you were driving with dcaa the accident wouldn't have happened".

Great, so with even mroe shaky hands I call the insurance company hoping to get hte witnesses details before the letter gets to me - they aren't on their computers as they "probably haven't been entered yet". Charming.

So now my questions:
- RAC said I get appointed a lawyer in court, is there a way I can talk to him/her before the hearing or is it a drive-thru condemming sort of thing?
- Would you recommend I get my own lawyer?
- If so, any ideas of good (and cheap, I'm a student remember ) lawyers in the Uxbridge/West London area? (court is in Wembley apparently)
- If I plead guilty, what will most likely happen to me? (and my licence?)
- If I plead not guilty, what happens? (especially if I lose)
- Any other advice?

Right now, I'm probably going to lie down, then try re-calling the insurance company to see if they found the witnesses details... fingers crossed...

Michele

 

[Steve_Perry]

... as I u-turned I heard a crunch and saw a biker on the floor in my RVM ...

I'm slightly confused, did you hit the back of the biker or did he hit the back your car, or did the biker hit the side of your car?

Either way, sorry to hear of your woes I'd be nervous too.

S.

 

[SilverSaloon]

i dont really know the answers to your questions, but just to say good luck with this.

from your description it sounds like the biker drove into the side of your car during ur u-turn. if this is the case and you pulled out in front of him as he was travelling along then i would plead guilty.... if not and u 100% know it was clear as u turned then plead not guilty. it all depends on the exact curcomstances that u told the insurance & thats why the witness statement is soooo important. if they say that the bike accelerated into you without looking after you had made your turn then u should be off the hook

 

[saorbust]

Am I correct in assuming the biker also tried to turn right, and cut across you on the inside, thus hitting your right rear quarter as you actually then turned in front of them ?

In other words, the biker pulled up to your right rear, followed you thru the turn and expected to be able to pull ahead of you as you crossed. Unfortunately you u-turned, and they ended up broadsided.

???

 

[SilverSaloon]

Am I correct in assuming the biker also tried to turn right, and cut across you on the inside, thus hitting your right rear quarter as you actually then turned in front of them ?

In other words, the biker pulled up to your right rear, followed you thru the turn and expected to be able to pull ahead of you as you crossed. Unfortunately you u-turned, and they ended up broadsided.

???

if so it sounds like the cops sent the letter to the wrong party.....

 

[Ashley]

- Would you recommend I get my own lawyer?

Yes

- If so, any ideas of good (and cheap, I'm a student remember ) lawyers in the Uxbridge/West London area? (court is in Wembley apparently)

You will get legal aid, simple as if you have no income. If you know a local copper ask him/her which solicitor they hate the most and go to them, as they only hate solicitors that win.

As for the rest only a solicitor is going to be able to advise you, anything said here is just idle chat.

 

[Spinal]

Can't sleep... I'm going crazy over this...

The biker was definetly NOT coming from my direction. As I had a green light to turn the road going the opposite direction to the one I was coming from had a red light, so I am assuming he didn't jump a red light and didn't come from there. (I know, assumptions are double edged swords). Which leaves only one road, i.e. that one that I could have turned right onto. Hence, he would have been coming from my left, and though I don't know the exact impact location, the damage to my car is on the left side of the rear bumper (a very egly crack, I've already taken the bumper off to see how bad the damage is and I will need to change the black plastic and the blue stuff over it), which to me says only one thing, he hit me in the rear...

What annoys me most is that as a biker myself, I can't immagine how one can hit a car! I can see hitting mirrors or opening doors, or being hit by a driver when you are in his blind spot, but rear-ending a car?! <shakes head>

I'll try calling the insurance company once more...

Michele

 

[imadoofus]

Sorry to hear about your problems, Michele.

If I understand what you're saying, you were turning right, and the bike, which was trying to overtake you ran into your side. If so, I'd say there should be no reason why he was trying to overtake you there, even if he was turning too.

They reccomend that if I can get the witness to give a statement saying that I was driving with dcaa (due care and attention) then I might have a chance,

I have to say that unless the witness is an 'expert' (policeman, for instance), then the court are very unlikely to accept his opinion as to how you were driving. They'll look at the evidence.

Yes, you will be able to talk to your lawyer first. He's going to want to know your side of the story, for a start.
I'd say there's probably no reason to get your own lawyer. It sounds black-and-white. Either you were wrong, or the biker was. I don't think this is an example where a well-argued case from a top barrister is going to get you off on a technicality, I'm afraid.
If you are found at fault, you'll be fined. Possibly banned, definitely points on your licence. The biker's insurance company will also claim against your insurance, so your future premiums will go up for lots of reasons (if you are able to get any in the future, with a DCA at your age).
If you plead not guilty, it makes no difference. If you're found guilty, the above will apply. It's unlikely that the punishment will be any harsher because you claimed innocence. You believe you were not in the wrong. Why plead guilty?

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh. It's reality. I don't know who was at fault, but this is not like a criminal case where guilt has to be proved 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Either you U-turned where you were not allowed to; or without looking, or the biker was trying to overtake you when he shouldn't, and was in your blind-spot.

The witness might be able to confirm that you checked carefully before performing your U-turn, but as I said, whether or not he thinks you were driving with due care is probably irrelevant unless he has proven expertise in assessing these things.

I wish you all the best.

PJ

 

[Alfie]

First and foremost:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Secondly, sorry about my long absence, I've had exams, thesis and generallly bad days... anyhow, down to the point...

As some of you might remember, in november I had an accident with a biker. I was at a junction, (in the filter lane), the traffic light was red to turn right, and I had 2 cars in front of me. The light turned green to turn right, the two cars went ahead, I went ahead, stopped (with my indicator still on) making sure no-one came down the red-lighted road and then u-turned. On that road, I was allowed to u-turn (went back to double-check). Unfortunately, as I u-turned I heard a crunch and saw a biker on the floor in my RVM. Stopped, witness stopped, police&ambulance came and all was fine... or so I thought.

The insurance companies are still debating who's fault it was, and I need to review the witnesses statement when they send it to me (they have sent it, I haven't received it yet). But, when I thought that it was a nice insurance matter, I got a court summons from the police, stating that I was being charged for "driving without due care and attention".

So, with shaky hands (first accident/court case/etc in my life) I call the RAC (they had told me they had legal advice) and explain the scenario to them. They reccomend that if I can get the witness to give a statement saying that I was driving with dcaa (due care and attention) then I might have a chance, otherwise I might as well as plea guilty as the court would use the "if you were driving with dcaa the accident wouldn't have happened".

Great, so with even mroe shaky hands I call the insurance company hoping to get hte witnesses details before the letter gets to me - they aren't on their computers as they "probably haven't been entered yet". Charming.

So now my questions:
- RAC said I get appointed a lawyer in court, is there a way I can talk to him/her before the hearing or is it a drive-thru condemming sort of thing?
- Would you recommend I get my own lawyer?
- If so, any ideas of good (and cheap, I'm a student remember ) lawyers in the Uxbridge/West London area? (court is in Wembley apparently)
- If I plead guilty, what will most likely happen to me? (and my licence?)
- If I plead not guilty, what happens? (especially if I lose)
- Any other advice?

Right now, I'm probably going to lie down, then try re-calling the insurance company to see if they found the witnesses details... fingers crossed...

Michele

Might be worth ascertaining if the other party/insurance company involved has insisted the police prosecute or whether the police decided to prosecute anyway. If its the former then the police didnt instigate the proceedings until the other party insisted because they didnt think there was a case to answer. This might help you.

Also, you should obtain a copy of the police officers report on the accident.

Good luck.

 

[imadoofus]

You will get legal aid, simple as. If you know a local copper ask him/her which solicitor they hate the most and go to them, as they only hate solicitors that win.

Not so, I'm afraid. Legal Aid isn't usually available for 'minor offences' which (assuming the biker isn't dead), is what this will be.

It's really only available if a conviction means you'll be jailed or lose your job, or if you're too stupid (or your Ennglish language skills render you unable) to understand what's going on in court.

You might be eligible for Legal Help, though Michele, but my advice is to check your policy. The RAC said you have legal expenses cover, but I think that will be limited or will only apply to a lawyer appointed by them or by the court. You can't just go out, and get a barrister at £500 per hour and expect the insurance company to pick up the bill.

PJ

 

[jgevers]

Firstly, I would get proper legal representation. Your insurance company should cover this....................

Secondly, I would get a specialist accident investigation company that uses 'PC Crash' software. The one I have used is Incinalysis Ltd.

I would expect that the procecution will try to pin a 'section 3' on you.

The system is too difficult to defend yourself. The specialist investigators will take care of all the witness statements etc.

Good luck,

 

[imadoofus]

I would expect that the procecution will try to pin a 'section 3' on you.

I thought that was "Causing death by dangerous driving"

PJ

 

[Spinal]

OK, called the insurance company and their line is:
- we don't have the witnesses contact details, only their statement, which is in the mail to you(me)
- we cannot offer any help with the court case, but we can say that if you get convicted you can rest assured that it will affect our decision on your accident

The dude was kind enough to say that I should call the police asking for the witnesses details, but he didn't know what number to call. Short of calling 999, I tried calling Her Majesty's Court service (the only number I could find amongs the 4 papers they sent me) and got put into a queue, then told that they had closed at 4:30. <Insert your choice of swear word/languge here>

So now what it comes down to is: do I do what I feel is the right thing and risk it all (and not go on holiday, as I was meant to leave a week after this court case, and if I plead innocent that date would change) or do I do what will get me a fine, some points and no car for a couple of years but no worries for the summer?

I really need to find a lawyer now, someone I can ask for advice... jgevers, I've been looking on google for incinalysis but can't seem to find a home site or "official" page. I did go through my yellow pages and found a few companies (Penn legal, Bird & Lovibond, Duncan & Lewis, etc) but am a little scared to call them and ask "how much do you charge"

Another point I noticed is the fine... its based on my weekly income, but, I don't have an income... I am employed part time with a company and have made the grand figure of under 150£ in the last 2/3 years - my travelcards and food are paid by my parents... hmmm, that might sound fishy in a court?

Oh, and it IS section 3;; I quote:
"Contraty to section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and Schedule 2 to the road traffic offenders act 1988"

As I didn't kill anyone... I doubt thats causing death...
Michele

 

[dougal74]

Michele,
I know how difficult it can be to write things on this forum and relate events in an accurate manner but basically any defence you may be advised to mount will be based upon how you recount your version of events.

What you have posted on here suggests that you aren't sure precisely what happened and the extent to which this is true may harm your defence.

When you are feeling calm I would try to get everything down as written text, pictures, anything to create a chronology of what happened so that it can be used as a comparison with any other witness statements.

You can then take this to any legal representative who advises you on the merits of any plea. Don't worry, these things have a habit of turning out okay once all the facts have been established and best of luck.

Regards, Adam

P.S. You wrote your post as this was a work in progress. Any good lawyer will listen to you and give some preliminary advice 30 min to 1 hour session before you have to pay them or instruct them to handle your case. They will also be able to advise you on what legal advice/costs your insurance covers and doesn't cover.

 

[Shude]

The dude was kind enough to say that I should call the police asking for the witnesses details, but he didn't know what number to call. Short of calling 999, I tried calling Her Majesty's Court service (the only number I could find amongs the 4 papers they sent me) and got put into a queue, then told that they had closed at 4:30. <Insert your choice of swear word/languge here>

The number you want is the local police force (non-emergency) number, which is usually written on the side of their cars. It's also available on the web

Another point I noticed is the fine... its based on my weekly income, but, I don't have an income... I am employed part time with a company and have made the grand figure of under 150£ in the last 2/3 years - my travelcards and food are paid by my parents... hmmm, that might sound fishy in a court?

My sister was in an accident when she was a student, driving without due care and attention got her a fine of about £500, plus costs and 3 points on her license.

Think about it, if you have no money what is the best possible punishment? I know... fine you a fortune!

I think my parents paid her fine off for her, it did not affect her insurance etc as she has never driven since.

 

[Spinal]

Adam, thanks for the advice; its freaky mostly because there seems to be so little time (7 days) to get everything ready - calm is a state I don't know right now.

The police have a very shaky (it was amazingly cold) description I gave them at the time of the accident, and my insurance company has a very accurate statement I gave a couple of days after, so getting my thoughts organised up isn't a problem. Pictures I only have a google-earth snapshot of the crossroads. There was a cctv, but the cops said that it was too far to resolve anything on it (at the time of the accident).

This is just so... overwhelming... When my father gets home I will call him (he lives 6000miles south from here) and see if he knows a lawyer in London that can help me, otherwise tomorrow I'll call all the people on yell. To make matters worse, I'm at the last 3 weeks of my thesis, and have my presentation the same day as the court case, so I will need to talk to my tutor about it and see if I can get it moved to the next day (if I plead guilty)...

Bah, I have to go (I agreed to babysit the children of some friends... best day ever....)

Mcihele

 

[dougal74]

Sorry to hear about various things going on. Look again at your copy of the statement you gave your insurers - did you put down everything you wanted to? does it make sense?

You can only recount what you know, do not worry about accident investigation, sat photos etc. There will be an official investigation and you can instruct someone to do your own if your lawyer advises you that this would be a sensible course of action.

I'll have a chat to a few people and see if there is anyone I can recommend.

 

[glojo]

I'd go along with dougal74. I cannot understand your description of the incident, and my guess would be that whatever you say the biker will disagree with and vice versa. I would assume the Police have managed to obtain independant witnesses, or the incident was self explanatory to the investigating officer, and they decided to prosecute on this? Down here the Police very rarely prosecute (unless of course there are injuries).

I hate the idea of merely getting a lawyer at the courtroom door!!! No way will they have time to prepare any sort of case on your behalf. If you think you are innocent then go the whole hog, get proper representation, and make sure you get a decent lawyer, but first off I would draw a plan of the incident with your vehicle and all the other vehicles that were present, then go through it all in slow time. Physically this motor bike did not simply just appear out of nowhere.

How long to you intend remaining in this country? It will drag out the court case if you plead not guilty and ask for all the prosecution evidence.

If this is your first motoring offence then I would be VERY surprised if you were banned from driving, very surprised indeed. Most foreign nationals seem to disappear before the court case. Section 3 is as you have said the relevant charge. Section 1 used to be Death by Dangerous Driving, this might have changed though.

Good luck with the court case, and try not to worry too much. No amount of worrying is going to alter the outcome. Oh and if the Judge puts on a little black cap just before passing sentence..... run! That is what they used to do before passing the death sentence.

Bye for now,
John

 

[Ashley]

Oh and if the Judge puts on a little black cap just before passing sentence..... run!

Ray of hope as always. The Sun always shines in Torquay.

 

[imadoofus]

I agree with John. A ban is very unlikely, I mentioned it only becasue it's not unheard of.

Of course everyone else is right about section 3. I was thinking of Schedule 3 of the RTO. Sorry to scaremonger.

PJ