Decision help please: 190e Cosworth or C36

[manalishi]

Hi all - newbie here. Lurked a while, while trying to decide which older MB to have as a second car.

After deciding that prices of C32s are falling far too quickly, I started looking at the C36. Which seems to have hit bottom on depreciation. I had a 190e a few years ago, and would also consider a well-speced and well-looked after Cosworth. About £5000 to spend (+/- a bit).

So far, I've gathered:

190e Cosworth
===========
+ build quality
+ looks
+ classic insurance (I think?)
+ cheap to run
+ genuine icon
- not that quick
- '80s equipment levels
- patchy service histories are common
- many are horribly molested


C36 AMG
=======
+ rare
+ better equipment (climate control as standard?)
+ proper AMG-developed car
+ faster than Cosworth
+ most seem to have FMBSH
- AMGs seen as 'liabilities' (when selling it on)
- potential rust problems (general W202 issue?)
- AMG parts cost when servicing

Would like to hear further thoughts on these? I'd do maybe 2000m a year in the car - mainly at weekends (do not need it to be a daily driver).

I also looked at E36 (W124 and gorgeous C124), but they're hard to find and more spendy. And I presume they're a bit slower than the lighter C36?

 

[bobby]

great dilemma to be in! I like both cars - so can't help you! Have you looked at C43s?

 

[bolide]

The biggest thing you've missed out is:

190e Cosworth
===========
+ appreciating


C36 AMG
=======
- still depreciating


Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[manalishi]

great dilemma to be in! I like both cars - so can't help you! Have you looked at C43s?

I did read up some on the C43, but it doesn't seem to be significantly better than the C36 (more like a cost-saving exercise by MB to replace the odd 3.6 with the off-the-shelf 4.3?) And it would be more expensive to run?

The biggest thing you've missed out is:

190e Cosworth
===========
+ appreciating


C36 AMG
=======
- still depreciating

Hmmm... I rather assumed that the C36 isn't going to dip much below £5000.

 

[Howard]

You can buy a C36 nowadays for £3k

One on Autotrader at the mo for £3250

 

[Adam230K]

C36's are nice cars, they are a bit expensive to run though due to their servicing and parts being AMG's. The 190E is probably slightly better built, but not by much, W202's are still considered to be from the era where mercedes were still making good cars so on that basis you shouldn't have to worry much there. Rust can be an issue on both cars if you dont look after them...

I've also never heard of c36's going massively wrong (wiring harness maybe)? but someone who actually has one can come and shed some light on it for you in a minute. And oh yeah, c36's usually have a very high spec too, in terms of toys (much more than the 190e).

 

[Alps]

i can vouch for the c36, c43 has a better spec and more options were availible, but service parts are expensive (ie brakes can cost £1000 for parts alone!)

 

[bigyin1]

Have you driven them both yet? perhaps that would help you make your mind up...

Personally the 190e would get my vote, but i prefer older cars...

 

[Will]

A few more considerations:

190E is available with a manual gearbox, C36 not so.
190E is quite DIY friendly, if that's your thing.

The AMG is a more powerful car, and obviously faster in a straight line. I think the handling and driver involvement of the 190E leave very little to be desired, a superb car that drives surprisingly well considering that most are around 20 years old now.

Classic insurance costs me less than £150 a year fully comp (I'm 26). That's garaged and with less than 3k miles PA.

There are a few high spec 190Es around - heated, electric, memory full leather trim, air con, auto, airbag etc - all available as options. I've also seen some low specced '36s - ie cloth trim and the like.

At the end of the day, both cars offer a lot for your money. The 190E is more of a classic to me, and for the sort of use I have for it, it's the perfect car. Use it once every week or so, keep it garaged and look after it. It's given me very little trouble in the 2 1/2 years I've owned it and still gives me plenty of satisfaction from driving and looking after it

As people have said, weigh up all of these factors and maybe go for a drive in each to help you decide. One thing that may hamper your decision is the availability of clean 2.3-16 and 2.5-16s is getting quite difficult, with people asking for steep money for top examples.

HTH,

Will

 

[Mark300SL]

Buy a really clean 190E 2.6 - look hard enough and you will find one with a full Cosworth kit/Interior for about £1000-£1500
Buy a not so clean C36 with good mechanicals

Add several weeks in the garage and mix well
Result - C36 powered 190E with the best of both worlds

 

[manalishi]

You can buy a C36 nowadays for £3k

One on Autotrader at the mo for £3250

Yes, I found a few yesterday. Though I'm wary of the cheapest car in a list, so I was allowing £5000 for a good C36 with no awkward questions/issues hanging over it. There's one on Ebay at the moment at £4995.

C36's are nice cars, they are a bit expensive to run though due to their servicing and parts being AMG's. The 190E is probably slightly better built, but not by much, W202's are still considered to be from the era where mercedes were still making good cars so on that basis you shouldn't have to worry much there. Rust can be an issue on both cars if you dont look after them...

I've also never heard of c36's going massively wrong (wiring harness maybe)? but someone who actually has one can come and shed some light on it for you in a minute. And oh yeah, c36's usually have a very high spec too, in terms of toys (much more than the 190e).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I did look at W202s when replacing my 190e, but the solid feel I was used to seemed to be lacking. I do like the idea of more toys...

i can vouch for the c36, c43 has a better spec and more options were availible, but service parts are expensive (ie brakes can cost £1000 for parts alone!)

Thanks - can I ask a cheeky Q? What's been the worst thing about owning the C36? Any significant servicing issues crop up at regular mileages/periods?

Have you driven them both yet? perhaps that would help you make your mind up...

Personally the 190e would get my vote, but i prefer older cars...

Me too, and the '80-'90 MBs are my favourite of all the MB styles. I've not driven either yet. Just wondering if there are things I've overlooked that owners can highlight.

 

[manalishi]

A few more considerations:

190E is available with a manual gearbox, C36 not so.
190E is quite DIY friendly, if that's your thing.

The AMG is a more powerful car, and obviously faster in a straight line. I think the handling and driver involvement of the 190E leave very little to be desired, a superb car that drives surprisingly well considering that most are around 20 years old now.

Classic insurance costs me less than £150 a year fully comp (I'm 26). That's garaged and with less than 3k miles PA.

There are a few high spec 190Es around - heated, electric, memory full leather trim, air con, auto, airbag etc - all available as options. I've also seen some low specced '36s - ie cloth trim and the like.

At the end of the day, both cars offer a lot for your money. The 190E is more of a classic to me, and for the sort of use I have for it, it's the perfect car. Use it once every week or so, keep it garaged and look after it. It's given me very little trouble in the 2 1/2 years I've owned it and still gives me plenty of satisfaction from driving and looking after it

As people have said, weigh up all of these factors and maybe go for a drive in each to help you decide. One thing that may hamper your decision is the availability of clean 2.3-16 and 2.5-16s is getting quite difficult, with people asking for steep money for top examples.

HTH,

Will

Hi Will - great info, and confirming the classic insurance point. Thanks for your PoV. My previous 190e experience wasn't trouble-free, but I suspect it was clocked and FSH was faked (naive, I was...). I did love driving the car, though. Lots of cheap 2.5-16s around, but there are a couple with low owners and great history/paperwork folders - on PH/Ebay/Autotrader.

Buy a really clean 190E 2.6 - look hard enough and you will find one with a full Cosworth kit/Interior for about £1000-£1500
Buy a not so clean C36 with good mechanicals

Add several weeks in the garage and mix well
Result - C36 powered 190E with the best of both worlds

Funnily enough, I was just mooching around www.w201.com and I saw postings about some odd 190s - including 3.2 AMGs and the like. Don't read German well enough to tell if they're lash-ups or genuine limited production cars. It's a great idea - but for someone with more patience than me!

 

[Mark300SL]

Funnily enough, I was just mooching around www.w201.com and I saw postings about some odd 190s - including 3.2 AMGs and the like. Don't read German well enough to tell if they're lash-ups or genuine limited production cars. It's a great idea - but for someone with more patience than me!

I wouldn't want the 3.2 m103 engine as they seem to be quite stressed
My option was an M104 3.2 24v into a 190 shell, this bins the Kjet in favour of EFi and gives more lattitude for further tuning

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=51153

 

[ant500sl]

My experiences so far with a 160,000 mile 1996 c36 bought a year ago with fsh for £4K.

Rear arches and back door bottoms rust with a vengeance, many dealers will give them a quick rub down and a coat of paint. Looks good at the time but after a few months it will all come back. Better to buy in original condition if possible for a discount and sort it properly.

With proper servicing the engines are still like new at silly mileages. The only issue with mine is the timing adjuster which rattles when warm. Sounds just like chain rattle but fortunately not fatal like a bad tensioner or chain.

Many parts are common to the C280 its based on with a few exceptions.
94-95 cars have AMG brakes which are silly money. 95-97 have sl600 fronts and e430 rears which are reasonably priced from the dealers. The catalytic converter is about £3k!, thats not the full system the back box is another £500 or so. The good news is that in my case both parts are original and in great condition, AMG didn't cut corners or costs.

Servicing is standard Mercedes, with low mileage an oil change at 12 months and a once-over followed 12 months later by filters and plugs all of which are standard Mercedes bits.

Gearbox is the old 4 speed auto up to 96 which I prefer as you know exactly what its going to do and when. 5 speed fitted in 97 which just has an extra gear and none of the electronics which make the later boxes seem like they have a mind of their own.

In my opinion its one of the best cars ever built by Mercedes as its useable for just about anything and is happy to sit in traffic jams or belt down A or B roads without fuss. Got rid of a 2005 M3 last year and the C36 beats it in every department with the exception of pose value which suits me nicely and for £40k less!

As for the 190 if I had any more garage space I could offer an opinion, after finding room for a 500E!

 

[bolide]

Lots of good info in this thread!

I like Mark300SL's idea. My only caveat is that the value of a 190 is dictated by condition & originality and an engine swop will kill resale value in the classic market. If you're buying just to drive, without an eye to eventual resale value, then a bigger, unstressed engine in a 201 does seem like a good idea

The six-cylinder W124s can seem nose-heavy after driving a 220 (though, to my mind, this is the only respect in which the six-cylinder cars are inferior) and I do wonder if the same would be true for a 201. There has to be a reason MB chose a four-pot for the 190 Cosworth - though I realise homologation was probably the real reason

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[manalishi]

I wouldn't want the 3.2 m103 engine as they seem to be quite stressed
My option was an M104 3.2 24v into a 190 shell, this bins the Kjet in favour of EFi and gives more lattitude for further tuning

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=51153

OMIDOG - that's some project! Can't imagine where the turbo gumf is going to go... though where there's a will, there's usually a way...

Hmmm... who's this Ben chap? And whatever happened to that 5.0l conversion? I've seen conversions shoehorning V8s into some small cars (like a Rover/Buick V8 into an MX5), so I suppose anything's possible.

 

[manalishi]

My experiences so far with a 160,000 mile 1996 c36 bought a year ago with fsh for £4K.

(snip)

Many parts are common to the C280 its based on with a few exceptions.
94-95 cars have AMG brakes which are silly money. 95-97 have sl600 fronts and e430 rears which are reasonably priced from the dealers. The catalytic converter is about £3k!, thats not the full system the back box is another £500 or so. The good news is that in my case both parts are original and in great condition, AMG didn't cut corners or costs.

Thanks for sharing that - mostly reassuring for the 95-97 models. The cat is a bit of a jaw-dropper, though. I think I read that the exhaust is stainless, so it should have a long lifetime (?) Are there any tell-tale signs that the cat's on the way out - i.e. that I could check when viewing?

As for the 190 if I had any more garage space I could offer an opinion, after finding room for a 500E!

Ah - the 500E... never seen so many as are now showing up for sale (petrol prices, I guess).

 

[manalishi]

Lots of good info in this thread!

I like Mark300SL's idea. My only caveat is that the value of a 190 is dictated by condition & originality and an engine swop will kill resale value in the classic market. If you're buying just to drive, without an eye to eventual resale value, then a bigger, unstressed engine in a 201 does seem like a good idea

The six-cylinder W124s can seem nose-heavy after driving a 220 (though, to my mind, this is the only respect in which the six-cylinder cars are inferior) and I do wonder if the same would be true for a 201. There has to be a reason MB chose a four-pot for the 190 Cosworth - though I realise homologation was probably the real reason

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

Unfortunately, I do have to keep an eye on future resale value - and insurance complications - so an engine transplant is only of armchair interest.

Interesting on that nose-heavy point - wonder if the 190e 2.6 suffers?

 

[para alpha]

do I know you manalishi from the old cavweb?

 

[manalishi]

do I know you manalishi from the old cavweb?

Who? Me? Don't think so - don't even know what cavweb is/was. That said, I've been around; I've been the Web's lowest common denominator since about 1995.

Other than a couple of MB forums recently joined, I mostly mooch around guitar/amp forums.