Doctor interrupts Cameron's NHS photo-op

[NW_Merc]

I saw it on the news, and although I found it astonishing, I was talking to my dad (an ex consultant psychiatrist) and my mum (an ex housewife) who said although the current state of affairs and cause of disgruntled employees, the way the surgeon handled things was not appropriate. Why? Well doctors in order to practice need to be on top of current medical practice. It would not surprise me if this 'man on a mission' surgeon fails to rise in his career or it is ended suddenly due to some alleged **** up he made somewhere in his earlier career. It is not difficult for someone who has caused embarrassment to the Prime Minister to be struck off the Medical Register for no apparent reason. No matter how big and powerful this surgeon may think he is, he has made a very large rod for his incredibly small back.

 

[renault12ts]

On the contrary I would say he is now safer than he ever was...no one, but no one would ever believe that if he was effected in anyway after this that it wasn't because of this. It certainly could not be contained.

 

[Dryce]

It is not difficult for someone who has caused embarrassment to the Prime Minister to be struck off the Medical Register for no apparent reason. No matter how big and powerful this surgeon may think he is, he has made a very large rod for his incredibly small back.

Nah.

Name some previous examples where this has been the outcome.

 

[HR17]

I saw it on the news, and although I found it astonishing, I was talking to my dad (an ex consultant psychiatrist) and my mum (an ex housewife) who said although the current state of affairs and cause of disgruntled employees, the way the surgeon handled things was not appropriate. Why? Well doctors in order to practice need to be on top of current medical practice. It would not surprise me if this 'man on a mission' surgeon fails to rise in his career or it is ended suddenly due to some alleged **** up he made somewhere in his earlier career. It is not difficult for someone who has caused embarrassment to the Prime Minister to be struck off the Medical Register for no apparent reason. No matter how big and powerful this surgeon may think he is, he has made a very large rod for his incredibly small back.

The PM was just a visitor in a clinical environment where the consultant was responsible - for the health/lives of the patients. The consultant has nothing to worry about. What he said was top of current medical practice as you say. People like him don't get to be where they are from being mediocre at what they do, or from having **** ups in their previous career. They are regularly audited and peer reviewed to make sure they stay at the top of their game. The GMC don't and can't just strike people off for making the PM(or anyone else) look like a ****.

 

[HR17]

That doesn't guarantee they're not useless.

That doesn't guarantee they're all useless.

Sadly doctors aren't that perfect. As a profession they'd like you think that they are. But they're just another bunch of people qualified to do something. Given number of very good, good, mediocre, not so good, and very not so good make up the mix.

That bit is normal for any profession but they also have the power to disrupt their own management.

IMO that makes the medical staff just as culpable for any failings in the NHS as the management. But typically they don't take the rap.

Quite agree that they're not all perfect, as we hear from the news and the GMC striking them off, but many more NHS consultants will be competent at what they do, than NHS managers are at what they do respectively. Doctors don't just get their jobs from giving BS and being lucky in the right place at the right time. They also get reviewed by their own and other hospitals, as well as their peers who can looks at their performance and measure it against their colleagues across the country to keep them on their toes. There are those who are better than others, and those who shouldn't be practising, and its those guys who are highlighted for retraining/education, and if that fails, their right to practice is withdrawn.

 

[tylerdurden]

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting USA healthcare is good. Their system is a disaster IMHO. I was just making the point that within the NHS their are those who add real value (many but not all doctors/nurses/cleaners/porters etcetc) and then a class who add very little (managers in hospitals/PCT's/SHA's etc).

I personally suspect that the government want to move to a insurance based part NHS part private system aka down under etc.

I dont know enough about the system but do know docs down under who seem to think its a better model.

 

[Dryce]

but many more NHS consultants will be competent at what they do, than NHS managers are at what they do respectively. Doctors don't just get their jobs from giving BS and being lucky in the right place at the right time.

I'll grant you that general management posts are not subject to qualification and review as in other professions such as medicine.

But my complaint is that the viewpoint is used by the profession as justification to disrupt good management practices.

I suspect that my view of the number of journeyman doctors who just get by is probably somewhat more jaded than yours. I don't see a high enough attrition rate in the profession to make me believe that the standards can be as high (or possibly the job so skilled?) as it would like us to believe .

 

[Scott_F]

I personally suspect that the government want to move to a insurance based part NHS part private system aka down under etc.

I have no reason to believe that the Government wants to introduce a system of private health insurance. What they are looking to do is try to introduce more competition into healthcare provision and open the door to more private sector involvement in the name of "efficiency".

 

[NW_Merc]

Nah.

Name some previous examples where this has been the outcome.

Hospital managers have suspended senior consultants my dad used to work with simply because they did not see eye to eye. There was a prominent oncologist/surgeon who worked in a hospital in liverpool who showed similar arrogance, coincidentally senior managers just "happened" to look into his patient mortality records strangely as his colleagues were attempting even more risky procedures..........he just happened to get suspended for evidence they managed to produce against him.

Where the management want to butter up a senior public figure and a doctor messes that up for them, it wouldnt surprise me that said doctor appears in the firing line after this whole thing blows over.

 

[Dryce]

coincidentally senior managers just "happened" to look into his patient mortality records strangely as his colleagues were attempting even more risky procedures..........he just happened to get suspended for evidence they managed to produce against him.

Trouble is when you get noticed .....

If the evidence was valid then the real question is whether the incompetence was suppressed/ignored and by whom.

 

[HR17]

Hospital managers have suspended senior consultants my dad used to work with simply because they did not see eye to eye. There was a prominent oncologist/surgeon who worked in a hospital in liverpool who showed similar arrogance, coincidentally senior managers just "happened" to look into his patient mortality records strangely as his colleagues were attempting even more risky procedures..........he just happened to get suspended for evidence they managed to produce against him.

Where the management want to butter up a senior public figure and a doctor messes that up for them, it wouldnt surprise me that said doctor appears in the firing line after this whole thing blows over.

Big difference between being suspended from your job on full NHS pay(allowing more time for private practice!?), and being sacked/struck off. Plenty of guys are stopped from operating until their work is properly peer assessed or they prove they are capable again after doing further training/retraining.

Managers often take issue with consultants on politics or policies, but they need firm evidence to question and take action on medical/clinical issues. Very few consutlant are struck off/sacked from upsetting 'important' civil servants.

 

[HR17]

I suspect that my view of the number of journeyman doctors who just get by is probably somewhat more jaded than yours. I don't see a high enough attrition rate in the profession to make me believe that the standards can be as high (or possibly the job so skilled?) as it would like us to believe .

The reason we don't see as many journeyman doctors, or a high attrition rate is the fact that they don't get to be where they are if they're not at the top of their game. After qualifying as a doctor, they spend another 10-15 years training to be a consultant. They are tested and examined regularly, all the way there, and throughout their careers. They are audited meticulously by their employers, their peers and anyone else who needs to, and their performance statistics measured and assessed. They say there's no such thing as a bad surgeon, and when you consider the consequences of even a minor mistake that can be fatal, you can understand why those who are 'bad' are removed as soon as possible.

As regards the jobs not being as skilled as you believe, standing for 16 hours while performing multiple bypass grafts on a patients hart through a microscope, reconstructing an RTA victims pelvis and internal organs and reattaching their limbs while they bleed, removing a tumour from the brain of a child and still leaving them able to walk/talk/breathe, giving a lifesaving blood transfusion to an unborn baby while still in its mothers uterus with its twin. I haven't found a Haynes manual for any of these yet.

 

[crockers]

Managers often take issue with consultants on politics or policies, but they need firm evidence to question and take action on medical/clinical issues. Very few consutlant are struck off/sacked from upsetting 'important' civil servants.

Managers don't have the right to strike anyone off thats a GMC decision only. Sacked is a different matter. Strange how a "consolidation" of posts can occur.

But aren't most consultants "contracted" to give just x hours a week to the NHS - freeing up other time for "private" work.

And let's not get into the massive salaries for GPs - negotiated very well indeed but by god the person who negotiated with them needs to be put against a wall.

 

[grober]

And let's not get into the massive salaries for GPs - negotiated very well indeed but by god the person who negotiated with them needs to be put against a wall.

That would be recent chairman of Celtic Football Club :- The Right Honourable The Lord Reid of Cardowan

Tories promise to change GP contracts as key part of manifesto - Times Online

and

John Reid, Baron Reid of Cardowan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dryce]

The reason we don't see as many journeyman doctors, or a high attrition rate is the fact that they don't get to be where they are if they're not at the top of their game.

As regards the jobs not being as skilled as you believe, standing for 16 hours while performing multiple bypass grafts on a patients hart through a microscope,

I've snipped off the quotes for convenience.

I'm not at odds on some of this.

But I think your characterisation of what goes on fits with the profession's veneer of polish and confidence. There are very skilled and capable people in the profession. But the bit that isn't really admitted is that there are less capable people. Some get parked off in areas suitable to their abilities - others just get by. Not all of the job areas are so demanding as the top flight in terms of skills and knowledge.

 

[HR17]

But aren't most consultants "contracted" to give just x hours a week to the NHS - freeing up other time for "private" work.

And let's not get into the massive salaries for GPs - negotiated very well indeed but by god the person who negotiated with them needs to be put against a wall.

It was the last government who introduce Agenda for Change, against the advice of many hospital consultants, so despite voting against it, they now get paid more for doing less. They might not agree with the politics, but its the government who decided that more people should be paid more. Most of the guys I know are content with the decision, as we would all be. Its a no brainer, but unnecessary.

 

[HR17]

But I think your characterisation of what goes on fits with the profession's veneer of polish and confidence. There are very skilled and capable people in the profession. But the bit that isn't really admitted is that there are less capable people. Some get parked off in areas suitable to their abilities - others just get by. Not all of the job areas are so demanding as the top flight in terms of skills and knowledge.

I disagree entirely, and don't think you understand the system. Doctors/consultants aren't just parked off somewhere quiet if they don't meet the standards. Each role is so specialised, that you can't just transfer people around so that they're out of the way. They're not just generic 'doctors'. As I mentioned, these guys train for over 10yrs after they graduate to get where they are. The less capable people don't get anywhere near the top, and those who fail when in position are removed or sent for retraining, and prevented from practising until they are safe and competent.

 

[tylerdurden]

Striking off a doctor is a matter for the GMC. However, managers can suspend docs (pending investigation). They can also make life difficult so much so that one may feel forced to leave etc.

To me the NHS managers are not professionals in the same way. They don't belong to a professional group. There is no specific qualification. There is no system of peer review and striking off as in the GMC or Law Society. Their main interest is to balance the books, drive through the change dictated from above.

Having said that, there are some managers who are really good and deserve higher levels of pay etc. Unfortunately these are few and far between. Most are quite average.

 

[Scott_F]

That would be recent chairman of Celtic Football Club :- The Right Honourable The Lord Reid of Cardowan

Tories promise to change GP contracts as key part of manifesto - Times Online

and

John Reid, Baron Reid of Cardowan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Would that be the same John Reid who, as Defence Secretary, stated that he would be happy for British troops to be able to leave Afghanistan without firing a shot ??

 

[grober]

Would that be the same John Reid who, as Defence Secretary, stated that he would be happy for British troops to be able to leave Afghanistan without firing a shot ??

I hadn't heard that one.